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Thread: Bus Travel Fine

  1. #1
    DF VIP Member rmj2663's Avatar
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    Advice Bus Travel Fine

    Guys looking for some advice. Brief story here< my lad normally catches a school bus, or gets a lift to school, however, he needed to be in school early for an exam so decides to catch 'normal' bus.
    He is 18 and studying A levels, so he shows his form pass to the driver and requests a child fare - being at school in full time education etc - and the driver says nothing and issues a ticket.
    Couple of stops later, inspector gets on, hauls him off the bus and issues £40 pound fine. Adult travelling on child fare.
    I appealed it and was rejected as he didn't have an 16-18 pass, which is free and allows term travel to and from school at child rate. He doesnt catch the bus normally, and was unaware of requirement for this pass.
    I dont feel inclined to pay, as far as I am concerned he should be allowed to travel at child fare to and from school, whilst in full time education, and no income.
    So do I let it run its course and maybe end up in court, or carry on appealing. At time of first appeal I wasnt aware my son had shown 6th form pass to driver when requesting ticket. In which case surely the driver should have said something?

    Any comments / advice welcome

  2. #2
    DF VIP Member BigBrand's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bus Travel Fine

    I was under the impression that the 16-18 pass is something you have to show the driver, and should have on you when travelling with a childs ticket, incase you're requested to produce, a form pass wouldn't suffice.

    I don't know if the bus driver is bound to request it for each ticket of this nature requested, but I would expect that it should be carried (as proof). I think you'll struggle to appeal. If you're applying to travel on a bus at a concessionary rate, then the onus will be on the passenger to understand and comply with the rules of such.

    Althought the reason for fine seems inacurate, he's not an adult on a childs ticket, surely the office is "not carrying a valid 16-18 photocard" whilst using a childs ticket. May be something there?

    The driver is naught in letting your lad on with a form pass, but that'll be his word against your lads in respect of what was shown etc.

    Thanks to BigBrand

    rmj2663 (22nd June 2018)  


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    DF VIP Member Rhinoz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bus Travel Fine

    Not sure where in the UK you are but in London if you fail to show a valid ticket for the journey you'll get a penalty fare, it's as simple as that.

    Unfortunately his ticket was invalid for that journey, I can see your point but what he did wasn't in line with how he should travel at a reduced rate, just my thoughts.

    Thanks to Rhinoz

    rmj2663 (22nd June 2018)  


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    DF VIP Member mitchb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bus Travel Fine

    Not an expert but surely if he has paid and has a receipt then the issue here is between the driver and the bus company?

    Your son has asked for a service and the driver has accepted his proof , billed him and accepted payment and issued a receipt.

    If it wasn't acceptable the bus driver shouldn't have accepted it, end of.

    Thanks to mitchb

    rmj2663 (22nd June 2018)  


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    DF VIP Member JonEp's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bus Travel Fine

    Not going into the legalities as there is a dedicated section for that here but I would suggest tomorrow morning you make a Subject Access Request to the bus company under the new GDPR (which is now free to do) for a copy of the CCTV footage from the bus which shows your lad boarding and the interaction with the driver.

    If its shows your lad showing the driver ID before the driver issues the ticket, and it does not contradict any written evidence you have provided in your appeal previously or that in your OP you have a potential get out of jail free card so to speak in mitigation when it eventually gets to the Magistrates Court if the Subject Access Request itself doesn't put the matter to bed first.

    6 Thanks given to JonEp

    Mickey (21st June 2018),  Northernbloke (22nd June 2018),  Over Carl (21st June 2018),  rmj2663 (22nd June 2018),  TAR (22nd June 2018),  tips (22nd June 2018)  


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    DF Super Moderator piggzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bus Travel Fine

    JonEp makes sense.
    In previous issues I have had with companies, twice I have requested recordings of telephone conversations to prove my point. Both times I never received the recording instead both times companies backed down and let me (in this case) out of contracts. They seem really reluctant to provide anything audio/video wise.

    Thanks to piggzy

    rmj2663 (22nd June 2018)  


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    DF VIP Member BigBrand's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bus Travel Fine

    Quote Originally Posted by JonEp View Post
    Not going into the legalities as there is a dedicated section for that here but I would suggest tomorrow morning you make a Subject Access Request to the bus company under the new GDPR (which is now free to do) for a copy of the CCTV footage from the bus which shows your lad boarding and the interaction with the driver.

    If its shows your lad showing the driver ID before the driver issues the ticket, and it does not contradict any written evidence you have provided in your appeal previously or that in your OP you have a potential get out of jail free card so to speak in mitigation when it eventually gets to the Magistrates Court if the Subject Access Request itself doesn't put the matter to bed first.
    I thought that this changed, where as an SAR under the DPA would warrant a £10 fee, that has been abolished under GDPR, but there is a provision data processors can charge a "reasonable fee" which is expected to still be around £10.

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    DF VIP Member Rhinoz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bus Travel Fine

    Quote Originally Posted by rmj2663 View Post
    Guys looking for some advice.

    ... as he didn't have an 16-18 pass, which is free and allows term travel to and from school at child rate. He doesnt catch the bus normally, and was unaware of requirement for this pass.


    Any comments / advice welcome

    I still think the fact you/he was 'unaware' he needed a 16-18 pass won't be a good enough reason.

  9. #9
    DF VIP Member BigBrand's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bus Travel Fine

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhinoz View Post
    I still think the fact you/he was 'unaware' he needed a 16-18 pass won't be a good enough reason.
    Agreed.

  10. #10
    DF VIP Member JonEp's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bus Travel Fine

    Quote Originally Posted by BigBrand View Post
    I thought that this changed, where as an SAR under the DPA would warrant a £10 fee, that has been abolished under GDPR, but there is a provision data processors can charge a "reasonable fee" which is expected to still be around £10.
    Right of access

    Individuals have the right to access their personal data.

    This is commonly referred to as subject access.

    Individuals can make a subject access request verbally or in writing.

    You have one month to respond to a request.

    You cannot charge a fee to deal with a request in most circumstances.




    https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations...ght-of-access/

    Thanks to JonEp

    piggzy (29th June 2018)  


  11. #11
    DF VIP Member BigBrand's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bus Travel Fine


    Can we charge a fee?

    In most cases you cannot charge a fee to comply with a subject access request.
    However, as noted above, where the request is manifestly unfounded or excessive you may charge a “reasonable fee” for the administrative costs of complying with the request.
    You can also charge a reasonable fee if an individual requests further copies of their data following a request. You must base the fee on the administrative costs of providing further copies.


    I don't think getting a copy of CCTV should be classed as excessive, so he may well be in luck. Not sure how you argue this with the data controller, if they deem it excessive and charge a fee, and you don't.

    As I've learnt recently there is a lot of things to be tested under the GDPR, and sadly I look forward to some of them.

  12. #12
    DF VIP Member JonEp's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bus Travel Fine

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhinoz View Post
    I still think the fact you/he was 'unaware' he needed a 16-18 pass won't be a good enough reason.
    I agree too, the question I would ask is did the driver make a mistake or use his discretion in issuing a child ticket when presented with the facts as stated by the OP.

    Often the way out of these situations is to side track the FPN process. A SAR will make other people not usually involved in the FPN enforcing process to look at it and make their own time and cost analysis in processing the request.

  13. #13
    DF VIP Member JonEp's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bus Travel Fine

    Quote Originally Posted by BigBrand View Post
    I don't think getting a copy of CCTV should be classed as excessive, so he may well be in luck. Not sure how you argue this with the data controller, if they deem it excessive and charge a fee, and you don't.

    As I've learnt recently there is a lot of things to be tested under the GDPR, and sadly I look forward to some of them. [/FONT][/COLOR]
    Me too, since its introduction its been my weapon of choice.

    I notice some forums too are even offering to delete users posts for example https://www.modaco.com/news/android/...k-guide-r1712/

    Thanks to JonEp

    BigBrand (22nd June 2018)  


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    DF VIP Member flumperino's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bus Travel Fine

    Mate, it completely depends on your personal preference of dealing with companies, and the level of effort you're willing to put in depending on how right or wrong you feel they are.

    Purely from what you've described, I would say they would think they have a good case, and so they would fight you. So for the sake of £40, I would personally pay up, be momentarily annoyed, and then move on.

    Thanks to flumperino

    Bald Bouncer (23rd June 2018)  


  15. #15
    DF VIP Member JonEp's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bus Travel Fine

    Any update on this ?

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