Tories plan benefit claim reform

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=629 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=3>Tories plan benefit claim reform

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width=416><!-- S BO --><!-- S IIMA --><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=203 align=right border=0><TBODY><TR><TD> The Tory incapacity reforms involve a new testing system

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- E IIMA --><!-- S SF -->The Conservatives are to unveil plans for incapacity benefit reforms which would require all claimants to be assessed to prove they cannot work.
The Tories say their plans, to be announced later, would mean 200,000 people losing their benefit.
Incapacity benefit is claimed by 2.64m people across the country at an estimated annual cost of £12.5bn.
Work and Pensions Secretary Peter Hain accused the Tories of copying the government's ideas. <!-- E SF -->
He said: "They are plagiarising plans already announced by us before Christmas and seeking to present them as their own.
Income cut
"The Tories have no credible plan to fund an expansion in 'welfare to work'. Far from achieving the massive savings the Tories need to fund their tax changes, these plans require significant investment in the short term which leaves them with a black hole in their spending plans."
Under Conservative plans, people removed from incapacity benefit would be given Job Seekers' Allowance and have their income cut by £20 a week.
While claiming Job Seekers' Allowance, people must demonstrate that they are looking for work, or their benefit is cut.
<!-- S IBOX --><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=208 align=right border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width=5></TD><TD class=sibtbg> We think it's time to take tough action against those who are deliberately staying at home and claiming benefits rather than going back to work


Chris Grayling,
Shadow work and pensions secretary

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The government is set to introduce its own tougher tests in the autumn, expected to cut the number of claimants by 20,000 each year.

Under the Conservatives' proposals, people who are confirmed to be too sick to work would still be paid their full benefits, but would be re-assessed at regular intervals.
Shadow work and pensions secretary Chris Grayling said: "We think it's time to take tough action against those who are deliberately staying at home and claiming benefits rather than going back to work.
"Under Gordon Brown we have seen millions of people coming into the country to work. Yet it's still possible for many British people to stay at home on benefits and not go back to work. That simply doesn't make sense."
The number of people claiming Incapacity Benefit is at the lowest level in seven years, but is still higher than when Labour came to power in 1997.
<!-- S IBOX --><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=208 align=right border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width=5></TD><TD class=sibtbg> Many people are just in effect thrown on the slag heap and to help them back into work would massively increase their own happiness


Labour MP Frank Field
Former welfare reform minister

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The government contends that all the Tories are trying to do is push existing reforms through further and faster, BBC's political correspondent Laura Kuenssberg says.
Ministers have agreed changes to the incapacity benefit system that will take effect later this year - for example, a tougher test to qualify for the payment in the first place, and a rebranding of the benefit to become Employment Support Allowance.
The number of people on incapacity benefit has also been falling in recent years but has not prevented it from rising up the political agenda.
Labour MP Frank Field, former welfare reform minister, said he was pleased the Conservatives were addressing the issue.
'Reserve army'
"Many people are just in effect thrown on the slag heap and to help them back into work would massively increase their own happiness, but...the government - whether it intended it or not - is now growing the economy by the importation of labour and most new jobs now go immigrants.
"If we are to reverse that trend it's crucial that this huge reserve army of people who could be working, should work," Mr Field said.
Mental health charity Mind reminded Mr Cameron that the benefit already has a strict standard which claimants must reach, and was not widely targeted by fraudsters. It also called on the Tory leader to address the problems and discrimination that mental health sufferers are exposed to, which often keeps them out of work. A spokeswoman said: "David Cameron needs to bear in mind that for the 40% of claimants who have mental health problems, the crucial issue is inadequate training of mental health assessors.<!-- E BO -->


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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7173453.stm



Now I'm all for getting lazy buggers back to work, but surely if someone has a doctors certificate certifying something, then its not upto the patient to prove anything ?

Surely the burden of proof lays with the accuser, namely those doubting the Doctor's judgement ?

A politician can never be qualified to judge a qualified Doctor surely ?

[B.I.G.]

Now I'm all for getting lazy buggers back to work, but surely if someone has a doctors certificate certifying something, then its not upto the patient to prove anything ?

Surely the burden of proof lays with the accuser, namely those doubting the Doctor's judgement ?

A politician can never be qualified to judge a qualified Doctor surely ?

Couldn't agree more m8 but it seems to be the in thing now.Companies do it as well if they have a sick scheme nigh on bullying people back to work with underhand bullyboy tactics disguised as occupational health interviews and home visits even though a doctor has covered you with a sick note.Where i work i pulled a muscle in my neck and was off for 4 days (self cert) got a doctors note for a week got called into work on day 5 and was told to come in and watch the security cameras for the week covered by the doctors note as this was something i could manage with my illness,humilliating as fuck(had no choice really as someone else refused to do this after a hernia op whilst still covered by a doctors note so they refused to pay him sick pay).The thing with this as well is what actual illness could you have that stops you being able to sit and watch a cctv screen barring blindness or piles.

Fair enough if the government want to get arthritis sufferers (for example) jobs like the cctv watching job i mentioned earlier then thats fair enough.But there have to be certain conditions.If people have worked hard for a majority of their lives and are then forced to take menial/demoralizing jobs (which no doubt employers would exploit and pay minimum or close to minimum wage) because they become sick in later life then thats a fucking disgrace.

As you say forcing lazy bastards into work i have no problem with whatsoever but truly ill people should be left alone with a little dignity.

[BBK]

As you say forcing lazy bastards into work i have no problem with whatsoever but truly ill people should be left alone with a little dignity.

And of course, with the track record of our politicians its going to be the lazy bastards who stay off work and the real sufferers forced back.

Like you both I agree in principal this is a very good thing, there are far too many benefit claimants in this country. But I just feel they are going to totally fuck this up

[B.I.G.]

And of course, with the track record of our politicians its going to be the lazy bastards who stay off work and the real sufferers forced back.

Or as is the norm true sufferers will just be tarred with the same brush as skivers and to avoid claims of discrimination as many sick people will be bullied back to work as lazy bastards.

[bbshark]

Where i work i pulled a muscle in my neck and was off for 4 days (self cert) got a doctors note for a week got called into work on day 5 and was told to come in and watch the security cameras for the week covered by the doctors note as this was something i could manage with my illness,

If you are off with a doctors sick note then your employer cannot make you to go on light duties while that sick note is in effect. Then can ask you if you want to do light duties but you must get your doc to sign you off, or you can sign yourself off.
If your make the injury worse then your employer and even you to a lesser extent are libel.
In your case you had pulled a neck muscle. if you had pulled it again whilst turning to look at a camera you could have been off work for even longer.

I went off work last year with a bad back, could hardly walk, but after only 3 dyas of being off i got a phone call about coming back into work on light duties. I told them no chance ive been signed off by the doc. I was requested to call once a week with progress reports.
After 2 and half months i was getting sick off doing nothing and wet back to work sitting behind a desk. when i spoe to human resources i was told the manager who had called me about coming back to work and been told off because they cannot bring me back into work while a doctor has signed me off has i would be uninsured.

[B.I.G.]

If you are off with a doctors sick note then your employer cannot make you to go on light duties while that sick note is in effect. Then can ask you if you want to do light duties but you must get your doc to sign you off, or you can sign yourself off.
If your make the injury worse then your employer and even you to a lesser extent are libel.
In your case you had pulled a neck muscle. if you had pulled it again whilst turning to look at a camera you could have been off work for even longer.

I went off work last year with a bad back, could hardly walk, but after only 3 dyas of being off i got a phone call about coming back into work on light duties. I told them no chance ive been signed off by the doc. I was requested to call once a week with progress reports.
After 2 and half months i was getting sick off doing nothing and wet back to work sitting behind a desk. when i spoe to human resources i was told the manager who had called me about coming back to work and been told off because they cannot bring me back into work while a doctor has signed me off has i would be uninsured.

Yep and thats the diffence in working for a company that actually cares a bit or one that doesn't give a fuck.When i got "asked" to come in for a chat and was "asked" if i would watch the security camera human resources where present at the meeting so what does that tell you.When even they don't step in your fucked.

I have decided though that if they try and pull that one again on me i will tell them "ok but if i aggrevate my injury either on my way to or from or in work i'll be suing whoever decided themselves in a position enough to overrule my doctor (my manager) as well as putting a claim in against the company for the same reason" i have a feeling they may decide to go with my doctors opinion.If not i may just "aggrevate" it and take it from there.

What annoys me is about 5 or 6 years ago i broke my ankle before i qualified for the sick scheme i went into human resources and asked if there was anything i could do as i wasn't getting paid.I got fucked off with the uninsured excuse then.....very convenient.

Saying that in the 3+ months i was off i stumbled across some shitty little forum so it wasn't all bad.