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  1. #1
    DF PiMP ise438's Avatar
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    Default Church at Night in Essex...

    Hi...

    Not been out with the camara for months took it out today orginal subject turn out to be a dis-appointment...

    However I took a detour on the way home and stumble across this church in the heart of Essex...

    What do all you think C&C please - how could this be improved...

    Ian ...



  2. #2
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    B B Leo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Church at Night in Essex...

    would have love to c it in b&w during the day m8
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  3. #3
    DF PwNagE neo2810's Avatar
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    Default Re: Church at Night in Essex...

    It's not a bad attempt Ise, but I'd have been running around hitting the front of the church and gravestones with a high powered torch or handheld flash to get the detail out (while the shutter was open obviously). That would have made it a great shot.

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    DF PwNagE dpSparhawk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Church at Night in Essex...

    Being honest, it's ok but there are some issues and I hope you wouldn't mind me offering the c&c as requested.

    F32. That's a tiny tiny aperture for the night time. This is why you probably had had to use ISO 800 which has resulted in a lot of digital noise in the shot.

    Consider the same shot using an F-Stop of around F8 - F11, maybe up to F14 , ISO 100 and adjust your shutter time until you get the result you want. It might expose for a little longer but you should still get a sharper less noisy image. You could go ISO 200 or 400 to get shutter time down.

    If I'm correct, using an aperture stopped down to F32 would result in the overall amount of light being diffracted (the light that bends around the object), to be greater than that at F8 or so. Much smaller apertures will cause diffraction softening which is why the image isn't as sharp as it could be.

    As for the composition, the church tower, I believe would be the main focal point of this image. In this shot, it's leaning a touch to the left. Probably down to the angle the shot was taken at as opposed to how level the ground or camera was. Try re-taking it standing more to the left. or right which will give you a different composition of the shot.

    What I do like about the shot is the bare trees and headstones. They add foreground interest to the shot and Churches at night, do offer excellent photo opportunities.

    I hope you appreciate the C&C. It's a decent shot but I know YOU can get it much better

  5. #5
    DF PwNagE neo2810's Avatar
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    Default Re: Church at Night in Essex...

    Ian's tech crit is correct as well. There is no reason to shoot night time shots (or indeed any shots) at much more than f16 unless you're fighting against very bright sunshine. Most camera's will struggle with diffraction above f16. The only time I'll shoot at f22 (the narrowest I'll ever shoot) is if I'm shooting long exposure to smooth water and don't have enough filters to achieve the length I want.

    Night time exposures are usually in excess of 15 sec's anyway (at f8-f11 which is usually the sweet spot of most lenses) so no need to go any narrower. You will not get any increase in sharpness or improvement in DOF going higher than f11 and indeed due to diffraction, usually you'll lose sharpness. Have a read up on "Hyperfocal Distancing" for an explanation on how to work out the effect of aperture and focal length on the DOF of your shots.

  6. #6
    DF PiMP ise438's Avatar
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    Default Re: Church at Night in Essex...

    Thanks for C&C guys thats exactly why I like this forum...

    You see I was under the impression that F32 was needed in landscapes to draw out the details...and that was the best setting to use...

    But now I undrerstand and will put that knowldege to good use...

    However me being me I actually shot it a lots of different F stops and shutter speeds...
    This one if - F11 - ISO 100 with a 20sec Exposure...it's uncropped ...

    Would you consider this a better shot ?

    Ian...


  7. #7
    DF PwNagE dpSparhawk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Church at Night in Essex...

    ABSOLUTELY!!!

    Immediately, you can see the image is MUCH sharper and the lighting is more balanced across the whole image. The sky is smoother with the apex of the roofs being much sharper, plus there's no noticeable noise.

    The tower still has that ever so slight lean effect but this is a much more pleasant image.

    You are correct in the fact that a higher F-Stop will offer more for landscapes but we're talking long distance stuff such as countryside and moutain views across lakes to some degree. It would also depend on your lens and other exposure settings. A church this close wouldn't benefit from a higher F Stop and especially at night.

    This shot is most definitely the much better image.

  8. #8
    DF PwNagE neo2810's Avatar
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    Default Re: Church at Night in Essex...

    Yup, your second is exactly what you shoul be aiming for. Crop it off just above the tree stumps and path and you have a winner. It could still have benefitted from a flash burst or two against the main building wall to bring out more detail but that's minor.

    Quote Originally Posted by dpSparhawk View Post
    You are correct in the fact that a higher F-Stop will offer more for landscapes but we're talking long distance stuff such as countryside and moutain views across lakes to some degree
    Not entirely correct Ian. It's really all about Hyperfocal Distance and which lense (focal length) you're using.
    When the lens is focused on the hyperfocal distance, the depth of field extends from half the hyperfocal distance to infinity. For example, the hyperfocal distance for a 28mm lens set to f/16 on a 35mm camera is about 5.5 feet. Everything from 2.75 feet to infinity will be sharp in a photograph taken with this lens focused at the hyperfocal distance. So really as long as your foreground is more than 2.75 feet away, you focus at 5.5 feet from the focal point of the lense and your entire shot will be in focus. Drop down by 1 stop on aperture and the hyperfocal distance increases a little so you have to focus a little further away. This is the reason its not really cut and dried, so each landscape shot you take will have a different aperture requirement (ie, if you're using a 10-20 @ 10mm and focusing on rocks in the foreground which are around 1 foot away, you're likely to need to shoot at f8 to get everything in focus as at 10mm and f8 the hyperfocal distance is just over 2ft so everything from 1ft to infinity will be in focus). This is the reason I rarely go above f8 for landscapes since very rarely is my foreground less than a foot from the focal point of the lens (marked by a line through a circle on the actual lens).

    In your second shot, that path is probably a good 4-5 feet away from your focal point (probably even more) so on the 18-55 lens, you really only needed to shoot at f5.6 to get a HD of 10ft giving you everything from 5ft to infinity in focus.

    Hope that helps to explain one of the most confusing aspects of photography

    In summary, work out the lowest aperture setting you can shoot at to get everything in focus, and use that. Here is a tool I use which creates a chart for different lenses that you can print out which shows the hyperfocal distance for each aperture setting for that lens. Very useful and saves loads of time doing complicated sums in your head

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] (click the download button obviously)

    You will need to know the "Circle of confusion" for your particular camera, see here: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    And a great place to learn all about Hyperfocal Distance in more detail: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

  9. #9
    DF PwNagE Bilbo_baggin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Church at Night in Essex...

    Wow to the second image.

    A vast improvement and a really good image.


    And the comments above, thats what makes DF photo forum so worthwhile.


    Paul.

  10. #10
    DF PwNagE dpSparhawk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Church at Night in Essex...

    Thanks Neo for the excellent explanation. I expected I'd come a cropper somewhere and I think it can be seen that my response about the distance was a little short and unsure. I was hoping on being corrected. It is bloody confusing at times though for sure

  11. #11
    DF PiMP ise438's Avatar
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    Default Re: Church at Night in Essex...

    Thanks guys - I may go out again to tonight and shoot a different church - if I do I will post the results...

    Ian.

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