Ferrari really aren't so keen on Brawn any more are they?

[casio]

Rivals: 'No doubt' diffuser illegal

Nigel Tozi QC, Ferrari's legal representative at the FIA Court of Appeal hearing in Paris, has insisted that there is 'no doubt' that the diffuser used by Brawn GP, Williams and Toyota during the opening two races of the Formula One season is illegal.

Speaking at the hearing in the French capital to discuss the ongoing saga, Tozi insisted that the three teams to have used the controversial device in the opening rounds of the season had exploited a loophole in the rules to use an illegal part.

"Anyone with a command of English will tell you it is a hole, so do not let someone attempting to be clever with words defeat the express purpose of the rules," Tozzi was quoted as saying by the Press Association.

"The appeal is not because we [Ferrari] have not made the most of an opportunity, but because Brawn, Toyota and Williams have not acted within the regulations."

Tozi also claimed that Brawn GP chief Ross Brawn, who enjoyed years of success with Ferrari, was a 'person of supreme arrogance' for thinking he was right with his team's diffuser design, while the FIA was accused of 'getting it wrong and not understanding the sport' for stating the diffuser was legal.

Renault's legal representative Andrew Ford also hit out at the 'diffuser three', arguing that the part in question was similar to one that the regie had developed early last season before it was declared illegal.

"It is not that Renault missed the boat, as Brawn have pointed out, it is because the FIA said it was illegal," he said. "It was at that point the diffuser was abandoned."

Brawn himself has already said he hopes 'common sense' will prevail during the hearing.

A verdict from Paris isn't expected until Wednesday afternoon.



after all ive read online over the past few weeks, i personally think theyre going to find it legal for 2 reasons, 1, it keeps the spotlight on the regulation changes and shows that smaller teams can win, and 2, if they screw over brawn, toyota and williams then mclaren will get more points out of it than ferrari would

i fogot to mention i got it from crash.net
http://www.crash.net/Formula+One/New...r_illegal.html

[Thrush]

This whole issue highlights yet again that there is no such thing as a good driver. It's all about the car.

[casio]

completely agree like it or not you just have to look at button and hamilton to see thats true, last year button had a dog of a car = no wins and barely any points, this year cracking racer = 2wins out of 2, hamilton last year cracking racer = world championship this year 2 races in and 1point

although saying that a good driver will still ring the neck of a crap car as hamilton did in the opener (before being disqualified) and was making good progress in malaysia,

look at schumacher in malaysia, take him out of the car and in charge of the team, and he puts kimi on wets on a dry track 7 mins before the rain even starts, just more proof that it was the car and not the cheating german bastard that made the difference, (other than when he was cheating..or trying to cheat)

[ka$h]

This whole issue highlights yet again that there is no such thing as a good driver. It's all about the car.

How come, Red Bull, one of the key complainants raced so well in both races sitting not too far behind the Brawn cars in the race and having nothing to do with design.

This year the change in regulations really has levelled off the playing field and brought the big teams down a level to where their car is in need of more design. Teams need both a good car AND a good driver to be number 1 and right now, Brawn seem to have both, and the winning formula right now certainly will be boosting confidence.

[Thrush]

You tell me?

I've watched F1 for years on and off, like wrestling in many respects you can be pretty certain what the outcome of a season or a single race is going to be:

Cash flow
Car Design

Anyone remember Villeneuve and Williams? Debuted in 96 with Williams, won in '97 died on his arse '98 (they lost one of their car designers if I remember correctly)


All of the drivers are world class, all coming from various different racing backgrounds, however, it is all about the car. If we were to mix the drivers around every race the outcome would still be the same.

[4me2]

Rivals say no doubt diffusers illegal

By Pablo Elizalde and Simon StrangTuesday, April 14th 2009, 13:21 GMT

Rivals of the Williams, Toyota and Brawn GP teams told the FIA's International Court of Appeal on Tuesday that there was no doubt the rear diffusers used by trio were illegal.
Ferrari, Renault, BMW Sauber and Red Bull have all appealed against the decision by the Australian and Malaysian Grands Prix stewards to deem the 'diffuser gang's' cars within the scope of the 2009 technical regulations.
With the teams now having left for China, a final decision on the case will be announced on Wednesday afternoon. The full findings however, are not expected to be released until later in the week at the earliest.
While the 'diffuser gang' remained resolute in their defence that their designs conformed to the letter of the technical regulations, Ferrari's legal representative Nigel Tozzi told the court in Paris there was no doubt they have exploited a loophole in the regulations to use an illegal device.
"Anyone with a command of English will tell you it is a hole, so do not let someone attempting to be clever with words defeat the express purpose of the rules," Tozzi was quoted as saying by the Press Association.
"The appeal is not because we have not made the most of an opportunity, but because Brawn, Toyota and Williams have not acted within the regulations."
Renault's representative Andrew Ford said the sport's governing body had already concluded the design was illegal, and that was the reason why the French team decided not to use it.
"It is not that Renault missed the boat, as Brawn have pointed out, it is because the FIA said it was illegal. It was at that point the diffuser was abandoned," said Ford.
Ford confirmed that the team has its own prototype version, which could be ready to run as soon as China should the case be called in favour of the 'diffuser gang'.
Brawn GP has won the first two races of the season and the result of today's hearing could completely change the championship situation.
If the ICA decides the diffuser is legal, the British team looks certain to continue at the front until rivals copy the design and catch up.
If it's decided that the 'double-diffusers' contravene the rules, Jenson Button could face the prospect of losing his two victories.
Team boss Ross Brawn said he was optimistic the decision would favour his team.
"You can't be 100 percent confident," Brawn told the BBC. "But I hope that common sense prevails on our side and the appeal court judges that there is a mechanism, a procedure, a policy and that it was followed properly and we should be left to get on with it."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74472

[Thrush]

Ah I hope the challenge fails!

[Waka]

They've been checked by the FIA and found to be legal once already.
The stewards in Australia said they were legal.
The stewards in Malaysia said they were legal.

In summary...Fuck. Off. Ferrari.

W.

[blaggard]

They've been checked by the FIA and found to be legal once already.
The stewards in Australia said they were legal.
The stewards in Malaysia said they were legal.

In summary...Fuck. Off. Ferrari.

W.

We'll see!

[Thrush]

We'll see!

If you don't deem the design to be illegal, we'll be packing up next year!

[blaggard]

I caught some Indy the other day, street circuit (Ovals sucks) and really enjoyed it, kinda reminded me of F1 years ago!

[Danger Mouse]

They've been checked by the FIA and found to be legal once already.
The stewards in Australia said they were legal.
The stewards in Malaysia said they were legal.

In summary...Fuck. Off. Ferrari.

W.

not a massive f1 follower but whatch bits and bobs so heres my 2p worth.

3 times its been checked and told its ok, the bigger teams who have over the last few years had the cash, drivers and for me spoiled it cause they won everything all the time. Now they arent winning so they decide to chuck some money at a legal arguement to "level" the playing field back in there favour.

Surely if it makes so much difference and theyve been told its ok why not just shot one on there car, if everything else is so bloody great that hey only lose cause fo the spoiler, just make the spoiler and stick it on ur own bloody car!

[Nibb]

Information

F1 appeal rules in Brawn's favour


Button has piloted his Brawn to victory in the first two races of the season


Motorsport's governing body, the FIA, has ruled the Brawn GP car, which has taken Briton Jenson Button to two wins this season, is legal.
A panel heard eight hours of strongly worded evidence on Tuesday after complaints that Brawn, Toyota and Williams, use an illegal diffuser.
And the five International Court of Appeal judges said the designs "comply with the applicable regulations".
All three teams are free to race in the Chinese Grand Prix in Shanghai.
Brawn GP currently lead the constructors' world championship with 25 points, with Toyota in second place on 16 points.
A Toyota statement issued immediately after the ruling said: "Our team studied the wording of the new 2009 regulations in precise detail to ensure we interpreted them correctly.
"We also made full use of the consultation procedure with the FIA which was a helpful process to ensure our interpretation of the technical regulations was correct.
WHAT IS A DIFFUSER?

It is the rear part of the floor of the car between the rear wheels and under the rear wing
It is crucial to the aerodynamics, and small changes can have a big impact on downforce - and therefore grip and speed

"Therefore we had every confidence that the design of our car would be confirmed as legal, firstly by race stewards in Australia and Malaysia and subsequently by the Court of Appeal."
The judges in Paris heard evidence from both sides, with Ferrari's legal representative, Nigel Tozzi QC, describing Brawn GP team boss Ross Brawn as "a person of supreme arrogance".
Brawn defended himself robustly and insisted his team's diffuser was simply "an innovative approach of an existing idea".
And Brawn's criticism of Ferrari consultant Rory Bryne and Red Bull technical guru Adrian Newey saw sparks fly in the courtroom, with the Englishman refusing to retract his statements.
FIA technical director Charlie Whiting was also grilled, with accusations his organisation are "getting it wrong, and not understanding the point".
The row broke out when Ferrari, Renault and Red Bull protested against the legality of the split-level diffusers on the eve of the season-opening grand prix in Australia, but race stewards in Melbourne rejected their claims.
BMW Sauber then had a similar protest rejected at the Malaysian Grand Prix while McLaren have recently added their weight to the official protest.
Speaking from outside FIA headquarters in Paris on Tuesday, BBC sports news reporter Joe Wilson said: "Rear diffusers this season were supposed to get smaller, but Brawn and a couple of other teams have ended up with bigger ones, exploiting a little loophole in the laws."
The protesting teams said the split-level design contravenes a rule that states the diffuser - an aerodynamic body part which aids performance - must have an upper edge that runs in a horizontal straight line.
606: DEBATE
Teams like Ferrari, MM and Renault will all get new diffusers at some point - the question is when?


ColchesterPaul

They also believed the design is negating the main aim of this season's new rule changes, which is to make overtaking easier.
The split-level diffusers generate more downforce at the rear of the car, resulting in a clear performance advantage of around 0.5 seconds per lap.
With the FIA's ruling, the seven teams who are running without the split-level diffusers are expected to try to incorporate the design into their cars as soon as possible.
But setting about such a radical redesign with the season under way will not be easy.
Many of the teams running with regular diffusers argue the cost of making the changes is too great, especially during a climate of cost-cutting within the sport in the face of the global economic crisis.
"I've heard several of them complaining about the cost," said Brawn before the verdict.
"But there are lots of things teams copy from each other and the cost doesn't get debated.
"I think some teams will be able to do it very quickly, but for other teams it will be more difficult because of their suspension configuration or other elements of the car."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/moto...ne/7996698.stm

[Waka]

Good.

Brawn is a very shrewd operator, I didn't expect him to get anything wrong. I'm surprised at the vitriol spewed by Ferrari tho, they sure are bad losers!

W.

[blaggard]

I suspect this just means that Ferrari International Rescue will get them further down the line, bad losers does not even come close to describing Ferrari!

[casio]

im glad theyve seen sense, although if the fia(t) had changed the decision, of the stewards in the opening 2 races, theyre would be uproar, not only from the teams but the fans who are already aware of the fia(t)'s preferance for the ferrari's, its just a shame the ferrari and the others felt this was needed, they will all have already thrown money at the aero dept to get one of their own made,

makes you wonder how the fia(t) are going to spin this years championship ferrari's way, keep your eye out for drive throughs, and speeding in the pitlane, or aggressive overtaking being punished, if the cars happen to be a brawn, williams, or toyota at least till ferrari are back in the title hunt

[honestDave]

This whole issue highlights yet again that there is no such thing as a good driver. It's all about the car.

Isn't that what the BBC Top Gear lap is for???

Lewis is the fastest to date isn't he?? especially as he completed his under extremely wet conditions.

[funkyg]

Isn't that what the BBC Top Gear lap is for???

Lewis is the fastest to date isn't he?? especially as he completed his under extremely wet conditions.

LOL, good call. Get all the F1 drivers to do the Top gear lap and then decide the title on that. Just think of all the money saved!

[ant3b]

Isn't that what the BBC Top Gear lap is for???

Lewis is the fastest to date isn't he?? especially as he completed his under extremely wet conditions.

also oil on the track if a remember right

[ka$h]

also oil on the track if a remember right

VXR8 dumping it's gearbox onto the track iirc