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  1. #1
    DF Member El Wappo's Avatar
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    Default Downloading Music - Discuss

    I noticed on this board that there are a number of links to download complete albums from various sources. I also noticed that that majority of people who post on this board seem to be very passionate about their choice of music, one thread being dedicated to the discovery of new bands.

    This leads us into conflict on the subject of downloading music for free. Now I know it’s not going to stop and certainly this discussion won’t have any kind of impact but we should have a look at the dangers involved and I would value your opinions.

    My argument for caution when downloading music goes thus:

    Downloading music for free will ultimately make being an ‘up and coming’ band untenable from a financial stand point because no money can be made from record sales. Thus it follows that potentially great new music will be stunted before its gets a chance to be heard.
    It’s certainly true to say that most of the great bands started because of a love of music but the idea that they could make money and live the good life is what pushes people to hone their art.
    Now think of your favourite song, you know, the song that you first got ‘jiggy’™ to. Maybe the tune that was playing when you first got drunk or had a toke. Perhaps at your last school disco. Now ask yourself would that same song have been recorded if there was no money to be made. Who would pay for the studio time, producer or engineer? What would be the point???

    It’s not enough to simply abdicate responsibility saying that the record companies charge too much for cds because those companies won’t back down on the prices. If anything the artist will take the hit and you will end up with more “Pop Idol” shit and the path for new bands will become harder and harder.

    Record companies are idiots at best and criminals at worst. On the whole most are currently still releasing albums out of habit but we are seeing a move to other business models like the pop idol and pop idol rivals formats in which musicians that truly care about their art don’t want to take part leaving real musicians with nowhere to play and no reason to even try.

    Discuss…

  2. #2
    DF Member El Wappo's Avatar
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    Hmm guess its not that kind of forum...sorry my mistake

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    DF Jedi hxbro's Avatar
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    A lot of new bands now release their music on file sharing networks to get people to listen to it, which chances are they wouldn't of heard of the new band before then.

    I download music from the pure fact that its easy, I get music I wouldn't normally listen to, and I have a 2mbit connection - got to use it for something

    Hx

  4. #4
    DF Member El Wappo's Avatar
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    Good point. Some bands release free material to gain intrest but say they get a deal. If people continue to download their music for free after that point instead of buying the CD they wont get sales and the record company will drop them which sends them back to square one giving away free music. This makes it impossible to get beyond a certain size.

    Many bands also now release dummy files on P2P networks to try to slow people down.

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    DF MaSter coogy's Avatar
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    If I download an album and really like it I'll buy it. A lot of the stuff I download I would never have dreamt about buying, never even heard of most of it. I have several cd's that I otherwise would not have considered buying had I not heard it first. A recent example - By the Way, by the chilli peppers, which now ranks amonst my favorite albums. I'm not a big chilli peppers fan, but I happen to like this album, but would never have heard it had I not d/l it. So I think there is a legitimate reason for d/l.

  6. #6
    DF Member El Wappo's Avatar
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    Coogy you seem to agree with my own views on the subject. I generally DL 3 tracks from a record. If I like it ill go buy the CD. This has to be the exception though as most people I know just DL records cos they have nothing else to do with the bandwidth.
    Last edited by El Wappo; 5th October 2002 at 05:13 PM.

  7. #7
    DF Jedi WTD's Avatar
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    Well I download music cos I can get it for free..
    A blank CD's a couple of pence, and I get a music CD for free!

    Its a matter of choice though..
    Heres a CD for 10p or one exactly the same for £15 which one you gonna take?

    If the music indudstry collapses (which it won't) then tough shit.
    Leechers killed I T V Digital... So what

    Movies on the other hand I won't download, cos I feel that the quality of the film, pails in comparisson with the DVD or the cinema. I know its free but its not a fair swap, unlike music CD's.

  8. #8
    DF Member El Wappo's Avatar
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    I understand what your saying because music is over priced but I think your being a little selective with your arguments cos if your smart enough to use this forum you also know that you can buy most of the music you want for 7.99 to your door from Play or CD NOW. If you read what i stated its more a case of some of the music you love will die out. You've probably heard the phrase 'Supporting the arts' well here it is on a scale that relates to you.

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    DF Jedi WTD's Avatar
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    Well then £7.99 for an album or £0.10 for one, makes no difference to me.

    I don't beleive for one minute that music I love will die out.
    I agree that there will be less profits being made, and some people will be paying more for there CD's but I for one not be paying.

    I don't do it because its over priced, I merely use that excuse to justify the downloading of music.

    Also I am broadening my musical horizons. Im listening to all manner of music that I thought I would never listen to. So in fact having the music I love dying out will not happen... Unless all music (except bangla and country and western) goes lol

  10. #10
    DF Jedi fe_man2000's Avatar
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    Personally I never used to buy a lot of CD's before MP3's - the odd one or two. Used to copy to tape a few from friends - they used to do the same from me - no big deal. There has been only a 7% drop in sales in the last few years according to the record companies so its not making a big impact. How many people do you know who download MP3's, now think about how many you know who hadnt even heard of it until recently I bet its more. In the 80's one of the big record companies CEO's said that Audio cassettes dropping in price would destory the music industry due to pirarcy, so this is not a new idea. To be honest I couldnt care less about big record compaines or Rich pop stars. The up and coming bands arent getting damaged by me downloading eminems lastest album - they can use the net to there advantage if there smart. I know its not as black and white as this but thats my opinion.

    Cheers
    Ironman

  11. #11
    DF Member El Wappo's Avatar
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    I agree with Ironman that the web is a good introductory tool for new acts to distribute their music (Although the Tape analogy holds only if you are willing to accept that its severity is vastly multiplied also Its not enough to say that the industry will find a way, Remember what happened to the Roman Empire.) but the future transition from download to sales will bite bands in the ass in the same way the it did with Linkin Park who were one of the first acts to graduate from web to label. They lost 50% of their earnings from Hybrid theory via internet piracy. Ok so you say that they can afford it but what about bands like At The Drive-in who were dropped from their label due to lack of sales with arguably their best work ahead of them. Under Pre-Web conditions their biggest hit 'One Arm Scissor' would have sold enough copies to get their label to keep them but too many downloads prevented that. Smaller labels cant afford these kind of losses so only the larger labels endure...(I morn the potential loss).This leads to the larger labels like EMI being the only ones to promote acts and you end up with shit like Emminem and Puddle of Mud (that’s only opinion) and insults such as Pop Idol and this new shit Fame Academy ( with I just spent an hour laughing at…I was stoned but I don’t think it was comedy). Now maybe that’s ok for the majority of people who are either happy with the mainstream or just watch MTV (who like single album bands with little lifespan) but the concept of bands maturing over time is fast becoming less and less commonplace leading to great works going unrecorded.

    You may be broadening your horizons currently as at this point there is 40 years of modern recorded music to draw on. But will that be added to significantly in the future? You will never be required to believe that the music you love will die out as it’s not something that can be directly measured. The same way you can’t quantify the number of Ford Escorts not driving down your road. You won’t see it happen; you can’t notice a decrease in diversity. You will just hear yourself saying more and more that there’s only shit bands around. Music will die before it even gets to you, restricting the diversity of your choice……………………….I wouldn’t miss Bangra though.


    Couple of points for WTD:
    As soon as film is pirated on the same scale of music (when you consider it to be of high enough quality) production values on film will go through the floor making big budget films untenable. Also in your last post you say “I don't do it because it’s over priced, I merely use that excuse to justify the downloading of music.” The fact that you use the term ‘Excuse’ implies that you already think (on some unconscious level) that downloads are fundamentally wrong, but ill leave that one to Freud….


    Whew that’s enough of that for the moment.
    Last edited by El Wappo; 5th October 2002 at 03:02 AM.

  12. #12
    DF Jedi dave208's Avatar
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    i cant really see downloading music being the downfall of anything but monopolistic record labels. my opinion is the independant scene/route will thrive from people downloading music. my only experience for all this is the hiphop genre, i cant comment on how it would/is effecting other genres.

  13. #13
    DF Member El Wappo's Avatar
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    The "Monopolistic" labels are already finding ways to make sure they don’t go under. That’s exactly what pop stars and pop idol are? They are created and run by very clever people who are now looking at different business models to make their money. Sadly there is no concern for quality; only trend chasing and instant pop idol success (just add water). Your point that the independent scene will proliferate may be true but this means more acts and even less money to go around. That in turn will impact production values e.g. quality of sound and the scope of the music.
    Ultimately my point, that through loss of earnings music careers will be drastically shorter and far less profitable, still stands. Much great music will die before getting to you.

    As a footnote the recent Robbie Williams deal is an example of the artist taking the hit of limp sales as opposed to the Label. This happens because labels are now creating deals where advances are recouped not only via record sales but also live performance which was not previously the case. Ok so Robbie may be able to afford it, but should the practice become commonplace smaller bands may never be able to live on there earnings let alone breakeven and make a profit.

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    DF Jedi dave208's Avatar
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    i see where youre coming from but do you know how much money can be had from being independant if youve got only a handful of the number of fans of say, robbie williams?

  15. #15
    DF Member El Wappo's Avatar
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    Dave208. Thats a hard question to answer because it really depends on what you call a handfull. Certanly record contracts are stacked against bands making money in the firstplace. A nd remember that we are only counting the fans that pay.

  16. #16
    DF PlaYa GavDF's Avatar
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    the only reason record labels are losing money is cuz of the pure fcukin shite they are putting out
    if i download something half decent i`ll prob by a album by that band or go see them
    i normally only dl live concerts tho because a band/singer is normally always better live than on record,unless your ian brown

    most new bands put records on there own site for free anyway to get fans and hopefully lead to people buying there album and no record label putting them in debt before they start,no good new band needs a record label to start with, they should tour,get noticed and do there own album to sell ,full covers and pressed cd lp for 79p and 250-500 quid in a studio

    if good albums get released the fans will buy them,they just use downloading as a excuse for there out of date artists,or ones with a flop album

  17. #17
    ABCMan
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    before i stsrted downloading music i had a lot of old records, my first downloads were mp3's of those records so i could burn them to a cd to listen to in the car without having the pops etc associated with transfering records to cassette, one i'd discovered the joys of free internet music i went hog wild (its a bandwidth thing when you can download an album in 10-15 mins) but as i listened to all this crap that i was downloading, i discovered groups i'd never heard of that i actuly liked so i searched out their mp3's as i got more i started to buy the real ones (on cd's) even paying uk prices for import albums, in truth i'd never bought that much music before.

    The other fact is this, how can anyone be harming the industry if the company wont let you buy it and that applies to anything, yes, i'll download a movie if i cant go to the cinema to watch it, its not my fault its the movie companies who hold back uk releases of films, then when it finaly arrives if i've enjoyed it i'll go watch it at the cinema or buy it on dvd, again many films have been bought simply on the streangth of me seeing a copy first, often films i would never even considered looking at if i'd had to pay for them.

    my point is that if you download something that you wouldnt have even considered buying you are not ripping anyone off as they would not have got your money anyway, but if as a result of downloading something i decide its worth paying for then its money whatever industry would not have got if i hadnt downloaded it first, this is especialy true with games, no way would i fork out £45 for a game i'd never heard of or seen before (if it was £10-£15 i might, but thats another story) however if i'd downloaded the game and i liked it i may well decide to buy it thereby rather than taking money from developers i'm actualy adding something by giving it a thorough test first then paying to developers who deserve it.

    of course if a games company releases a game overseas and refuses to release it in the uk than i think they dont deserve my money as they dont want it.

  18. #18
    DF PlaYa GavDF's Avatar
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    2001 the biggest selling album in the world was linkin parks hybrid theroy

    2001 the worlds most downloaded album was linkin parks hybrid theroy

    more people downloaded this album than what some massive bands could sell,yet they still sold the highest number of original copies too

  19. #19
    DF Member El Wappo's Avatar
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    Totally right. I guess youve got to pick which bands to support via download then buy T-Shirt and the record. Good bands can grow well that way (Pantera for example). Problem is people I know who would consider themselves 'music fans' havent paid for an album since the start of this year specifically because of download. They have DL'ed most of the big CD's released this year and also enjoy the works of smaller bands whom could do with the support. This cannot be good for anyone and I think it could well be the norm ammongst users....i suppose the problem with this argument is that most people lie in some grey area inbetween these two states, that makes it hard to resolve.

  20. #20
    DF Wh0re legolamb's Avatar
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    Not me I want it for free, If the albums were £5 ish i would go and buy them but not £15+. If I like a band then I would go and see them, if they could lower themselves to tour properly that is, by that I dont mean Wembly, NEC etc... lets have the personal touch back, do the small venues not make a killing in one go at a venue where most of the audience cant even tell whos on stage, Ok so they would have to work harder for it, but then I work for my money so why shouldnt they. Thats the only way theyll get my money at the mo.. Most of the trash we get nowadays doesnt even involve instruments and the vocallists are a bit suss too, Bring back Live music with proper "bands" thats what I say, let the people who enjoy performing get the money and stuff the rest.:signs:

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