Ferrari receive no more punishment on team order charge

[4me2]

Ferrari receive no more punishment on team order charge


Ferrari have escaped further punishment for using banned team orders, according to the Italian Motorsport Federation.

It has also been reported that the sport's governing body, the FIA, will review the rule banning team orders - where drivers are told what to do.
The decision was made at a World Motor Sport Council disciplinary hearing.
Ferrari were fined $100,000 (£65,100) for appearing to give Felipe Massa a coded message to allow Fernando Alonso through to win the German Grand Prix.
Ferrari boss Stefano Domenicali had arrived in Paris for the hearing confident that no further sanctions would be imposed on the team.
Domenicali had said earlier: "We're sure the World Council will understand our position."
The Italian team had been charged with breaking two sections of F1's rulebook after Massa moved over to let Alonso pass him on lap 49 of the 67-lap race at Hockenheim on 25 July.
One is article 39.1 of the regulations, which states that "team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited".





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F1 team orders explained



The other is article 151.c, which says "any fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition, or to the interests of motorsport generally" can be punished.
Massa was told by his Ferrari race engineer, Rob Smedley, over the team radio: "Fernando is faster than you. Can you confirm you understand?"
The Brazilian responded by letting Alonso through after Turn Six moments later.
Following the move, Smedley added: "Good lad. Just stick with it now. Sorry."
The incident provoked a widespread backlash against Ferrari, with some teams saying the incident damaged the sport's credibility.
BBC pundit and former team owner Eddie Jordan told BBC Radio 5 Live: "It was very blatant. If Alonso goes on to win the championship by two points it will always be seen to be a sham, where breaking the rules pays off, and that is something that can never be acceptable.
"What Ferrari did was they showed no respect to the public, they treated us all like muppets, they broke the rule."
Domenicali explained after the race that the team had only wanted to keep Massa aware of the latest race developments and that Ferrari didn't give him explicit instructions.
"And because we have already seen in the past that certain situations could not give the best result for the team, that was the information that we wanted to give and we leave the drivers to understand and take notice of it in order to make sure that the team in terms of the result is the best," he said.
The fine Ferrari were given in Germany was the maximum the stewards were allowed to impose immediately after the race.
The WMC upheld the fine but decided not to take any further action- a decision which will boost Alonso's already dwindling title hopes.
There was a sense before the hearing among other F1 teams that neither Ferrari nor their drivers should be penalised further.

606: DEBATE

I don't like team orders and I believe all instances are taking away from the sport and the fans. Thankfully most times it is a bit more subtle than the way Ferrari did it


Mename2332

The 12 teams within the paddock are keen to operate in the harmonious atmosphere that has been fostered since the formation of the Formula 1 Teams' Association (Fota) in 2008.
There was also a feeling that the teams would prefer the rule banning team orders to be abolished because it is difficult to enforce.
If the rule was removed, the teams would instead tacitly agree not to use team orders as much as possible.
FIA president Jean Todt was also in Paris for another World Motor Sport Council meeting but had excluded himself from the process to avoid a conflict of interests arising from his previous role as Ferrari team boss. Deputy Graham Stoker presided over the Paris hearing.
The hearing into the charges facing Ferrari will be the first major ruling since Todt took over from Max Mosley last October.
In his first year in power, Todt has - in marked contrast to his predecessor - adopted a conciliatory tone in his dealings with F1 and has been comparatively low-key.
The FIA decision could be critical to Ferrari's championship chances this season, which has only six races left to run.
They are 80 points behind leaders Red Bull in the constructors' standings, while Alonso is 41 points behind McLaren's Lewis Hamilton in the drivers' title race, with Massa 32 points further back.
There are 25 points available for a win.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/moto...ne/8964502.stm

[Freddy]

Fair enough

[blaggard]

Well there's a surprise

[casio]

total piss take, Mclaren get fined £50 million for looking at some one elses designs, ferrari get fined 60k for riggin a race!

fuckin fia are twats, we should have known it'd go this way with the history Ferrari Internetion Assistance have with ferrari. not to mention the former head of ferrari's f1 team jean todt in charge I wonder how long till the next team does it and gets fucked over todt's desk... unless he's wearing the fuckin red of cheating twats ferrari,

and fuck Schumacher - I still dont like the lop jawed twat, (nothing to do with this I know but still he's a twat)

im not sure that im going to bother with watching this weekend, Ive not missed an f1 race in 22years but whats the point, the cheats will cheat and nothing will be done. I think im done with F1!

[tiggerbiker]

total piss take, Mclaren get fined £50 million for looking at some one elses designs, ferrari get fined 60k for riggin a race!

fuckin fia are twats, we should have known it'd go this way with the history Ferrari Internetion Assistance have with ferrari. not to mention the former head of ferrari's f1 team jean todt in charge I wonder how long till the next team does it and gets fucked over todt's desk... unless he's wearing the fuckin red of cheating twats ferrari,

and fuck Schumacher - I still dont like the lop jawed twat, (nothing to do with this I know but still he's a twat)

im not sure that im going to bother with watching this weekend, Ive not missed an f1 race in 22years but whats the point, the cheats will cheat and nothing will be done. I think im done with F1!

you read my mind m8.

i just feel sorry for Massa in all this

[blaggard]

And now Ecclescunt is hinting that the team orders rule may be scrapped, probably a good thing but also probably intended to defuse the Ferrari situation. right or wrong they broke a rule, any other team (particularly McClaren) would have been fined to bankruptcy!

[Greyfox]

Ferrari international assistance at it again..........cunts

[lithho]

total piss take, Mclaren get fined £50 million for looking at some one elses designs, ferrari get fined 60k for riggin a race!

fuckin fia are twats, we should have known it'd go this way with the history Ferrari Internetion Assistance have with ferrari. not to mention the former head of ferrari's f1 team jean todt in charge I wonder how long till the next team does it and gets fucked over todt's desk... unless he's wearing the fuckin red of cheating twats ferrari,

and fuck Schumacher - I still dont like the lop jawed twat, (nothing to do with this I know but still he's a twat)

im not sure that im going to bother with watching this weekend, Ive not missed an f1 race in 22years but whats the point, the cheats will cheat and nothing will be done. I think im done with F1!

what he said lol, but you missed one vital point ALONSLO IS A MOODY CUNT!

[4me2]

what he said lol, but you missed one vital point ALONSLO IS A MOODY CUNT!

But Schitmacher will remain the UberCunt for the foreseeable future !

He holds a masters degree in cuntism !

[super mike]

And now Ecclescunt is hinting that the team orders rule may be scrapped, probably a good thing but also probably intended to defuse the Ferrari situation. right or wrong they broke a rule, any other team (particularly McClaren) would have been fined to bankruptcy!

It should never have been brought in.

[blaggard]

It should never have been brought in.

That's not the issue, the uneven treatment of teams for rule breaking IS, as in Ferrari get light punishments if any at all and everyone else gets it on a sliding scale relating to the threat they pose TO Ferrari.

[casio]

The FIA are a joke, if THEY can't enforce the rules whats the point in having the FIA at all? if they can't stop people doing something thats prejudical to the sport -like alonso needing his team mates to either crash into the wall or to move aside to get him the win (Alonso being someone Martin Brundel claims is the best "pound for pound" racer out there) -what use are they?

Going by the thought that if they cant enforce the rules then its effectivly legal, that makes everything is legal, that makes in season testing, Active suspension, v10 engines etc all legal. if they all did it -which they now can knowing if they all do it, the FIA cant enforce the rules.

as I said whats the point in having the FIA -other than to make sure ferrari win by any means necessary

[pratman]

That's not the issue, the uneven treatment of teams for rule breaking IS, as in Ferrari get light punishments if any at all and everyone else gets it on a sliding scale relating to the threat they pose TO Ferrari.

i was watching the F1 forums, and eddie irvine says regardless of what people say it still gets done and will continue to get done, the only difference this time was that ferrari got caught because they made it obvious and he stated that he let so many drivers through when it was an unwritten caluse in the contract who the number 1 or 2 driver was. the fact that everyone is going mental is a bit ott, because mclaren did it with alonso, although alonso was not liking the decision to let lewis be the number 1 driver his car was deliberately set up for team orders. whether anyone likes it or not its gonna carry on going on in F1, you saw earlier in the year when webber was forced to use an older front wing on his car than vettel and that was due to the team instructing that vettel gets the better newer part as he was their choice. but there was no investigation into that, simply because redbull did not make it as obvious. people need to understand that its a team sport, the teams want to do well, if massa isnt happy with being number 2 then he should leave and join a team where he is number 1, because i am sure he is aware that alonso will be the number 1 driver. yes ferrari want competetive drivers at that font but they dont want to be paying alonso a lot more to be finishing behind massa simple as, if that was the case they would sign chandok as number 2 driver to make sure that alonso would be finishing in front.

and although all you ferrari haters will hate this post, it happens in every team.

[casio]

just because it happens doesnt make it legal, as you mention they could have chandock in the number 2 car but what if like the front wing fiasco at rbr happened to chandock and like webber he goes on to win the race how then do you manipulate the results to make sure alonso wins? yes I hate ferrari but thats not whats under the microscope if it were williams or mclaren do you think they would have had the equivlient of a finger wagged at them and then let off with a piss poor 60k fine?

when it gets to the end of the year and the points are being worked out, not for the championship but for the monetary amounts that each team gets for the wins and the places they score doesnt manipulating the result and gain them more money seem wrong? especially when they get a bonus for taking the championship

what about the history books of f1 are they going to add a * to denote when the Champion or the driver who won a race had to have his team mate step aside to allow them to win?. if you go further down the same path what about if teams like mercedes or renult have it wrote into the engine supply contracts that if a customer engine is infront of a works engine on track they must change places?

recently there has been investigations into snooker, cricket and horse racing for fixing the results how is f1 any different? you can bet who will be on pole, fastest lap and who will win the race, if they decide during the race that one driver should win over the other like happened with alonso and massa shouldnt the bets be void and refunded?

As I mentioned I hate Ferrari and Shitstacker but it wouldnt matter who it was that was rigging the race it's against the rules they should be punished, I wonder how people would like it if force india turned up at the next race with a v10 with a rev limit of 22,000rpm and then went out and won the race, how is cheating to win ever the right course of action?

[pratman]

yeah but my point is, that its gonna happen whether this rule is in place or not, ferrari were stupid enough to make it obvious, but it will continue to happen with all teams that are competing for position in the championship, and the only reason we are not seeing more of it in the redbull team is because vettel has screwed himself out of being number one by making mistakes, and not on strategy, as we saw earlier in the season he was number one and all the focus was on him for everyone in that team but now because webber has performed he is the main man there. although its not sporting and i agree with you that the punishment was a joke but i am pretty sure what was said earlier in this thread will happen, and that is that the rule will be scrapped and contracts will be made more obvious to indicate who is number 1 and 2 driver.

[casio]

even if vettel hadnt hit button at spa I find it hard to believe red bull would have walked away with a 60k fine for rigging a race, yes you could argue that its gone on and will always go on but if the fia policed the sport with the same vigilance they apply to teams like mclaren (they made them have a member of the fia in the pits to keep an eye on them) it wouldnt go on,

if ferrari had been thrown out of the world championship or made to re-apply to compete in f1, as was a risk for mclaren when they looked at the ferrari designs, (which is something that has always happened during tests and gp weekends, which meant that they even knew at one point based on the engine note while cornering how much fuel each car was running with.) -then maybe there would be no cheating going on if they knew there was an actual risk of being kicked out of the sport or effectivly crippled financially with a massive fine as was the case with mclarens £50million pound fine, if a team stood the chance of losing the same amount as some of the lower teams run on for 12 months they wouldnt do it.

its not a case of if they all do it on the sly its ok its a simple case of its against the rules its against the rules. if you were doing 40mph in a 30 zone but were doing it on the sly you'd still get 3 points and a £60 fine.

as I said above if the fia cant police the sport what use are they? if they cant stop the cheating then everything is legal for all teams if they all do it, it doesnt matter if its a force india, virgin, hispania racing, mclaren, williams or ferrari the rules are there for all the teams to compete within, if one teams decision to ignor the rules and cheat to win how is that fair at the end of the year when the teams who compete within the rules get less of a share of the money when teams like ferrari who are fixing the results get the biggest pile of cash,

I can understand your point of view but there are specific rules against it and they should be applied to all teams equally, you cant just decide which rules to follow and which to ignor

[pratman]

yeah i see what your saying but until the FIA change the sport in terms of having each driver being ran by a different team there is no way they will stop this, so i think it would be good to see 22 different teams on the grid that way there is no way you can have the sport compromised the way it has been, and there will be pure competition between each driver, then and only then will we see who the best teams/driver are.

[casio]

you dont 1 team per driver you need the rules enforced in a consistant and fair way with the reason punishments both are and are'nt applied to each team and driver with an even hand, its not difficult you break the rules and you get punished,

theres alot of people taking the side of "well if you cant stop it make it legal" that didnt work for marijuana and it wont work in f1, they want to encourage overtaking but with the swipe of a pen that'll vanish, im not saying its not hard to enforce the rules it is, but its not impossible unless the fia want to be.

Unless the FIA wanted to let their favoured team with a driver who's been involved in blackmail and 2 rigged races off clean and clear why wouldnt they do something?

We all doubt that if it'd been Mclaren accused of team orders that they'd have walked away with a pisstake of fine and thats the problem, all the teams should be held to the same rules not a rule for one and a rule for the rest.

[blaggard]

yeah i see what your saying but until the FIA change the sport in terms of having each driver being ran by a different team there is no way they will stop this, so i think it would be good to see 22 different teams on the grid that way there is no way you can have the sport compromised the way it has been, and there will be pure competition between each driver, then and only then will we see who the best teams/driver are.

You are right 2 drivers but only one possible champion mean that team rules will always happen.
You still are not grasping the point, Ferrari constantly bend and break rules and get away with it, I'm not going to write a list here.

[pratman]

You are right 2 drivers but only one possible champion mean that team rules will always happen.
You still are not grasping the point, Ferrari constantly bend and break rules and get away with it, I'm not going to write a list here.

yeah i understand your point, but they arent the only ones its jsut they got caught and they sem to be more obvious about it than any other team, maybe because they know they wont get properly punished, but whatever the reason it goes on in all teams and will continue to. like i said earlier in order to govern it you should only have 1 driver per team in order to stop a team influencing decisions.