Berocca

[GTI]

Fact is we're all living longer, so our current state of living can't be all that bad
Anyway, I wasn't advocating Berocca as some for of elixir for long life, just a quick n easy pick me up for the stresses of modern day living.

[darkstar]

Well just bought some to try been feeling tired a lot so thought give it a chance .. Boots are doing 3 for two at the moment

[CzarJunkie]

Fact is we're all living longer, so our current state of living can't be all that bad
Anyway, I wasn't advocating Berocca as some for of elixir for long life, just a quick n easy pick me up for the stresses of modern day living.

We could all be living a lot longer. We live longer now because food hygiene is better and most diseases are treatable or eradicated in industrialised nations. The diseases of wealth, such as cancer, heart disease and diabetes continue to increase. Of course the pharma companies have remedies to treat the symptoms and artificially increase our longevity, but at what cost to both the tax payer and the quality of life we enjoy?

Nations with single payer health services are facing some very difficult choices, these will only increase as populations age. The free market can not and will never solve the problems that are looming.

The only answer is for governments to educate the masses and introduce legislation which will force the food and pharma industries to come up with products that will promote health. This does not include the current status quo where government are led by lobbyists from both industries and we see 'low fat' options full of sugar or pharma products which
just treat the symptoms rather than promote health before symptoms arise.

A more integrated health care system is called for where there is prevention rather than 'treat the symptoms and make more money for pharma'.

[TJB]

We could all be living a lot longer. We live longer now because food hygiene is better and most diseases are treatable or eradicated in industrialised nations. The diseases of wealth, such as cancer, heart disease and diabetes continue to increase. Of course the pharma companies have remedies to treat the symptoms and artificially increase our longevity, but at what cost to both the tax payer and the quality of life we enjoy?

Nations with single payer health services are facing some very difficult choices, these will only increase as populations age. The free market can not and will never solve the problems that are looming.

The only answer is for governments to educate the masses and introduce legislation which will force the food and pharma industries to come up with products that will promote health. This does not include the current status quo where government are led by lobbyists from both industries and we see 'low fat' options full of sugar or pharma products which
just treat the symptoms rather than promote health before symptoms arise.

A more integrated health care system is called for where there is prevention rather than 'treat the symptoms and make more money for pharma'.

I work in the Pharmaceutical industry and I have seen the amount of work that goes on behind the scenes promoting health and well being. You make it sound as though the industry is making people sick just so they can sell you the cure. Just because you have a medicine there is no guarantee that it will get to market. There are just too many hoops to jump through. There are many reasons why certain diseases are on the increase most of which, I believe, can be put down to poor lifestyle choices, stupidity and laziness. I don't know what is in Berocca but if it's on the market then it will be safe.

[CzarJunkie]

I work in the Pharmaceutical industry and I have seen the amount of work that goes on behind the scenes promoting health and well being.

Give me some examples of the pharma industry promoting health and well being.

Most pharma products are designed to ensure repeat custom. They invariably treat symptoms, they do not cure. You can only promote health from a place of health, not illness. If your statement were true the pharma industry would be in the business of preventing disease, not treating it.

You should know all of this if you really work in pharma. Personally I don't think you're bright enough, unless you're a salesman of course.

[TJB]

Give me some examples of the pharma industry promoting health and well being.

Most pharma products are designed to ensure repeat custom. They invariably treat symptoms, they do not cure. You can only promote health from a place of health, not illness. If your statement were true the pharma industry would be in the business of preventing disease, not treating it.

You should know all of this if you really work in pharma. Personally I don't think you're bright enough, unless you're a salesman of course.

Whatever mate. I think you've been watching too many episodes of Watchdog.

[Geko]

Are you a medical sales rep though?

If you are a medicinal chemist it would add more credence to your words. That's all.

[TJB]

I'm neither a sales rep or a chemist but I do work for Novartis and have seen first hand what it takes to bring something to market and have also seen what we do to promote health and well being.


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[CzarJunkie]

I'm neither a sales rep or a chemist but I do work for Novartis and have seen first hand what it takes to bring something to market and have also seen what we do to promote health and well being.


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It would be good if you could explain how Novartis has promoted health and well being.

[TJB]

We run shit loads of health schemes and promotions local to each site. We give away medicines and vaccines to some of the worlds poorest countries. We sponsor no end of local sports clubs and provide health care facilities for staff and their families. We're often In the top ten companies to work for. I'm sure you'll find fault with what I'm saying but I don't buy into your conspiracy theories.


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[GTI]

It would be good if you could explain how Novartis has promoted health and well being.

Its sometimes hard to know when you're being serious and when you're just on a wind up. Do you actually place the entire Pharmaceutical industry in disrepute, or just 'Big Pharma'?

So perhaps GSK, Novartis, Sanofi etc.. are bad, but a small Indian generics company producing cheap antiretrovirals for Africa is good? I am interested to know, because I actually believe that we have the potential to do a lot of good. Certainly there have been scandles over the years, which industry is immune from that? but on the whole you cannot say that society would be better off without Pharma companies. Again I work with a lot of people who share my values and beliefs, and if I ever heard of efficacy data being manipulated or saw anything less than stellar safety, I would squeal like a pig on thanksgiving.

As a regulatory affairs professional I am responsible for submitting the entire pharmaceutical dossier to health authorities for approval i.e. quality, pre-clinical (animal) and human clinical and so I see the full spectrum of data. And also as an employee I am fully protected by whistleblowing laws, so what would I have to lose... my job? who gives a fuck, If I burnt all my bridges with Pharma I could always go work for the WHO, an NGO, Health Authority or even return to my primary occupation as a hospital Pharmacist etc..

Anyway, back to Berocca.. try some you old hippy cunt

[CzarJunkie]

Its sometimes hard to know when you're being serious and when you're just on a wind up. Do you actually place the entire Pharmaceutical industry in disrepute, or just 'Big Pharma'?

I totally agree, the world would be worse off without pharmaceutical companies. From a purely selfish stand point, for instance, my parents would probably be dead now. Both of them are on multiple medications for high blood pressure, high cholesterol etc. The usual 4 to 5 medicines most ageing adults are saddled with after the invariable onset of coronary heart disease.

However, with the billions spent, specifically by 'Big Pharma' on R&D, there could easily have been a cure developed for heart disease by now. But there is no business case for a cure. There is only a business case for medications such as statins, which the patient takes for life and make the pharma companies billions in profits. 3 of the top 5 best selling prescription medications are for treating heart disease or for lowering cholesterol. 'Big pharma' are perpetrators of a massive worldwide scam when it comes to cholesterol lowering medications. They seem to have convinced every doctor, especially in the West, that putting patients on cholesterol lowering drugs before the sign of any disease is a preventative. When what doctor's should be doing is promoting a healthier lifestyle.

There's also the 'over the counter' remedies like indigestion tablets or ointments for fungal infections etc. There are literally thousands of these types of 'over the counter' products on the market which are just treating the symptoms and making customers for life. For instance, to cure indigestion just make your diet more alkaline. Which means more fruit and vegetables in your diet and less animal protein and processed foods. The same goes for the majority of ailments, such as fungal infections. Again, these are largely down to what you eat.

If I was a real conspiracy theorist I'd suggest the food industry and 'Big Pharma' were in cahoots. The food industry makes us sick with their cheap and nutritionally bankrupt products while the pharma companies churn out remedy after remedy to ensure we keep eating the crap. Then one day we get high cholesterol, high blood pressure or diabetes and guess who jumps in with another remedy to keep us alive just long enough to consume more shite from the food industry?

Now, I know that 'Big Pharma' haven't sat down with the food industry and worked all this shit out. I'm not fucking crazy, but both industries have seized on an opportunity to serve themselves while relying on the other to provide them with customers. Whenever governments have tried to step in to break up this odious relationship there has been pressure from both sides.

[TJB]

If I was a real conspiracy theorist I'd suggest the food industry and 'Big Pharma' were in cahoots. The food industry makes us sick with their cheap and nutritionally bankrupt products while the pharma companies churn out remedy after remedy to ensure we keep eating the crap. Then one day we get high cholesterol, high blood pressure or diabetes and guess who jumps in with another remedy to keep us alive just long enough to consume more shite from the food industry?

Big Pharma don't just appear with a remedy. It takes years to bring a product to market and there's no guarantee it will be successful. I agree with you regarding the food industry but it's supply and demand. Some people just can't afford to eat well and others are just too lazy and uneducated to cook properly.

[Geko]

I agree with CJ.

If the current capitalist model was applied throughout history there would have been no Penicillin. Alexander Fleming would have worked in R&D for some big Pharma company and would have been employed to find treatments and not cures. Penicillin would have been marked as not suitable for market and disregarded.

[CzarJunkie]

I agree with you regarding the food industry but it's supply and demand. Some people just can't afford to eat well and others are just too lazy and uneducated to cook properly.

That's simply untrue. It's got nothing to do with supply and demand. The food industry rely on the ignorance of the majority and they produce cheap mass processed food using damaging ingredients such as salt, sugar and unhealthy fats. Then when there is a call for healthier products they manufacture the idea unhealthy fats is the killer and present us with products stuffed full of 'healthy fats', sugar or salt as an alternative.

If you know anything about health you'll know inflammation is the key reason behind most diseases of wealth, such as heart disease, diabetes and cancer. One of the biggest reasons for this is our imbalance in omega 3 and 6 essential fatty acids. The typical western diet has a ratio of 20:1 in favour of omega 6 when the ideal diet is closer to 1:1. The food industry currently would have you believe sunflower oil is a good thing. You see it on the side of all kinds of products as a positive, such as potato crisps. What they don't tell you is that sunflower oil is a major source of omega 6 which promotes inflammation.

That's just one example.

[TJB]

That's simply untrue. It's got nothing to do with supply and demand. The food industry rely on the ignorance of the majority and they produce cheap mass processed food using damaging ingredients such as salt, sugar and unhealthy fats. Then when there is a call for healthier products they manufacture the idea unhealthy fats is the killer and present us with products stuffed full of 'healthy fats', sugar or salt as an alternative.

Did you see 'Jimmy vs the Giant Supermarket'? Jimmy Doherty basically tried to replace three of Tescos best selling products with healthier, free range alternatives. Tesco were not interested because he (Doherty) couldn't get close enough on price to their existing products. Listening to the buyers for Tesco it appears most people buy their food based on price, not content. I think you're right that the food industry rely on ignorance but if people demand cheap shit alternatives they will keep supplying them. I think you can still see the program on 4OD. It's quite an eye opener.

[GTI]

However, with the billions spent, specifically by 'Big Pharma' on R&D, there could easily have been a cure developed for heart disease by now. But there is no business case for a cure. There is only a business case for medications such as statins, which the patient takes for life and make the pharma companies billions in profits. 3 of the top 5 best selling prescription medications are for treating heart disease or for lowering cholesterol. 'Big pharma' are perpetrators of a massive worldwide scam when it comes to cholesterol lowering medications. They seem to have convinced every doctor, especially in the West, that putting patients on cholesterol lowering drugs before the sign of any disease is a preventative. When what doctor's should be doing is promoting a healthier lifestyle.

So people are quite literally eating themselves to death, doing less exercise and ignoring doctor's advice, but yet pharma is to blame for extending their lives?
I agree with you that preventative medicine is better than interventional medicine, but as we do not live in a totalitarian nanny state (yet) we cannot force people to live their lives in a certain way. As for the whole statin/cholesterol issue, I do agree that what was once a convincing argument has descended into controversy, primarily because my colleagues in Marketing dredge the literature to look for any 'legal' angle to increase profits. They're doing their jobs as best they know how, but it is upto academia and the media to do 'their job' and counter any false claims with alternate hypothesis. Again Pharma companies aren't the only ones doing research, any academic worthy of their name would love to publish a paper that challenges the status quo, its how science moves on.

I worked in a company that invented the whole class of 'erythropoietin stimulating hormone' analogues, essentially drugs that boosts your red blood cell count by turning on their production. One of the leading indications of the drug was 'chemotherapy induced anaemia'.. a blockbuster drug being used almost without a second thought in post chemotherapy care. Then a Danish group published a study to show that the drug may be doing more harm then good, and actually fuelling the growth of tumours. The company's share price nosedived, half its value wiped out as investors got the jitters and health authorities worldwide started descending. Peak sales back in 2006 was $4.12 billion, but after news broke they have struggled to raise above $2 billion. So to summarise, pharma companies do not hold the monopoly on the truth, bad science will always be outed no matter how big you are.

[CzarJunkie]

That's a totally flawed argument. Relying on the ignorance of the consumer is not an excuse to poison them. We don't need a nanny state, we need responsible food producers and pharma companies who care more about health and less about profits.

[TJB]

That's a totally flawed argument. Relying on the ignorance of the consumer is not an excuse to poison them. We don't need a nanny state, we need responsible food producers and pharma companies who care more about health and less about profits.

Good luck with that.

[CzarJunkie]

Good luck with that.

That's exactly the response I would expect from someone who works in pharma. Well done.