Berocca

[GTI]

That's exactly the response I would expect from someone who works in pharma. Well done.

Aren't you in the health food racket.. I mean business?

[CzarJunkie]

Aren't you in the health food racket.. I mean business?

My business promotes health and clearly we have to make a profit. However, we are involved in projects to improve the health and diet of the local community through education. You can judge me, but please don't compare me with the ruthless way your company serves shareholders.

[greaseweasel]

Ah, this suddenly explains a lot.

Its like having a book shop and slating the promotion of eReaders

[Geko]

Do your own research. But government guidelines are misleading. There is a lot of confusing information out there and some of the marketing should be illegal. A cereal producer should not be allowed to market cereals which are 50% sugar to children. That alone should tell you how far in the pocket of big business the government are.

[GTI]

Ah, this suddenly explains a lot.

Its like having a book shop and slating the promotion of eReaders

He makes a lot of valid points, however my feelings about the multi-billion pound health food and alternative health industries is probably similar to how he feels about Pharma. I see a huge amount of profiteering and anecdotal evidence, but little in the way of scientific fact. A typical pharmaceutical drug needs 2 randomised, phase 3 clinical trials involving 000's of patients before its granted licence, which is not the case with herbals.

[CzarJunkie]

He makes a lot of valid points, however my feelings about the multi-billion pound health food and alternative health industries is probably similar to how he feels about Pharma. I see a huge amount of profiteering and anecdotal evidence, but little in the way of scientific fact. A typical pharmaceutical drug needs 2 randomised, phase 3 clinical trials involving 000's of patients before its granted licence, which is not the case with herbals.

That's because pharmaceuticals have a long history of killing people. Herbals don't.

[CzarJunkie]

Ah, this suddenly explains a lot.

Its like having a book shop and slating the promotion of eReaders

That just shows how ignorant you are. The industry I'm in is growing year on year and only becoming more popular as people educate themselves about their health. That's why the pharma companies either try to muscle in, Berocca is a prime example, or they plant stories in the media rubbishing the natural health industry. The last thing they want is an educated, well informed and responsible populace because that means a drop in profits.

[Geko]

What business are you in, CJ?

[WotTheFook]

So people are quite literally eating themselves to death, doing less exercise and ignoring doctor's advice, but yet pharma is to blame for extending their lives?
I agree with you that preventative medicine is better than interventional medicine, but as we do not live in a totalitarian nanny state (yet) we cannot force people to live their lives in a certain way. As for the whole statin/cholesterol issue, I do agree that what was once a convincing argument has descended into controversy, primarily because my colleagues in Marketing dredge the literature to look for any 'legal' angle to increase profits. They're doing their jobs as best they know how, but it is upto academia and the media to do 'their job' and counter any false claims with alternate hypothesis. Again Pharma companies aren't the only ones doing research, any academic worthy of their name would love to publish a paper that challenges the status quo, its how science moves on.

I worked in a company that invented the whole class of 'erythropoietin stimulating hormone' analogues, essentially drugs that boosts your red blood cell count by turning on their production. One of the leading indications of the drug was 'chemotherapy induced anaemia'.. a blockbuster drug being used almost without a second thought in post chemotherapy care. Then a Danish group published a study to show that the drug may be doing more harm then good, and actually fuelling the growth of tumours. The company's share price nosedived, half its value wiped out as investors got the jitters and health authorities worldwide started descending. Peak sales back in 2006 was $4.12 billion, but after news broke they have struggled to raise above $2 billion. So to summarise, pharma companies do not hold the monopoly on the truth, bad science will always be outed no matter how big you are.

It took quite a while and a few deaths to out Avandia (Rosiglitazone) as being bad though, didn't it? I'm pretty certain that it was GSK that was accused of fiddling the results of trials results, to imply that it was more effective than it actually was and was without side effects, claims that we now know to be false, as it caused heart problems. Flawed trials and maipulated science are bad in anyone's book.

[Stinky Pete]

It's been a while since I've been on DF, pretty quiet usually but I had to reply this one. My reply is not to so much to the OP as to the discussion between CJ and everyone else


I read the whole thread btw before posting as there seems to be a lot of vitriol on both sides, and some misunderstandings too


I am a synthetic/medicinal chemist. I worked for big pharma for 12 years before I was made redundant, and now I work in an academic lab doing pretty much the same thing day to day, but with no promise of the glory of having my name attached to a drug/cure/money-making-scam. My work these days is all about probing the biological pathways of certain cancers and how they can be interrupted or stopped.


Sorry CJ but I am going to address some of the points you brought up, everyone else's seem to have been debunked or covered - I'm not having a go at you, I even agree with you on one or two


CJ - Most pharma products are designed to ensure repeat custom. They invariably treat symptoms, they do not cure


SP - a drug is designed as a molecule that interacts with a protein (or some other biomolecule in the body), to interfere how it interacts with other stuff in the body. These molecules also do other stuff to other processes in the body which are sometimes deleterious to health and frequently cannot be predicted. The ways that novel molecules interact with the processes (millions/billions/trillions??) in the human body are so unpredictable, that it cannot be said, that pharma companies design medicines to treat only the symptoms and not attempt to cure. What frequently happens is that the compound that makes it to market might not be the one that treats the disease the best, but the one that satisfies the myriad hoops the FDA/NICE etc have set in place for it.
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CJ - (in reference to indigestion tablets addressing only the symptoms) just make your diet more alkaline. Which means more fruit and vegetables in your diet


SP - Fruits are usually acidic as they contain citric acid, so they cannot increase the alkilinity of your diet - but I definitely agree with this - more fruit and veg is the way forward. There are medicines called "proton pump inhibitors" which cause your stomach to produce less acid, and alleviate the symptoms of indigestion or acid reflux, which I suffer from personally. I have also taken one of these for a while, but like one poster I am a bad patient and would rather make medicines than take them. Also, as this medicine is a preventative, it has to be taken all the time just the same as the medicine that fixes only the symptoms, so big win for pharma on cure AND prevention
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CJ - We don't need a nanny state, we need responsible food producers and pharma companies who care more about health and less about profits.


SP - I completely agree here CJ - everyone I know who works in pharma or academia would love to invent/discover a cure, we are all complete science geeks. Yeah we love the paycheque every month, but if I had enough money to eat and have a home/family (and buy gadgets ) - I'd do that shit for free! What winds me up is the management and HR bullshit I have to deal with everyday that stops me getting in the lab and getting shit done. For too long pharma have been looking for the blockbusters that would mean they'd never have to work again, and so they never push the small medicines that would only make millions not billions.
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CJ - That's because pharmaceuticals have a long history of killing people. Herbals don't.


SP - Nature is full of substances that kill, she is not so innocent. Plenty of organisms produce toxic materials that are designed to kill not cure. Now I know that you are talking about herbal remedies here, but if your argument is that natural means safe, then I am afraid you are ill-informed (morphine, asbestos (shit yeah, I never knew that was natural either!), mercury, arsenic, snake venom, anthrax, formaldehyde, cosmic radiation from the sun, pufferfish, plenty toxic mushrooms, belladonna (deadly nightshade), ricin, hemlock) - sorry I don't have examples of herbal remedies that kill, but then I did google "herbal remedies that kill" and it appears that while on their own they may not kill, they can interact with other medicines/substances you might be taking in a bad way.
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I have to say here though, CJ, I get from this thread that you own or work at a company promoting or selling herbal remedies, sorry if I am wrong. As such, you may also be in the same position as pharma companies, where your products must make money for you to continue. These herbal products are not held to the same rigourous standards that pharma companies' are, and this is usually because they are not marketed as pharmaceuticals, because if they were, the FDA etc would demand proper clinical trials involving mucho cash. I would be willing to wager a significant sum of money that if all available herbal remedies were subjected to the same trials that pharmaceuticals were expected to pass, that a not insignificant number would fail those trials. I don't say this to be inflammatory, but the discussion here has been about two different industries which run on different rules.


I chose my career path because I wanted to help people, I wanted to be involved in research that could improve people's health and possibly cure something. The reality is that the only way that this research can go ahead is with money. I am not independantly wealthy like many of the gentleman scientists from the Victorian age, who made many groundbreaking discoveries. Alexander Fleming (from his Wikipedia page, and who an ealier poster mentioned would have languished in a pharma research lab) certainly doesn't sound like he was dragged up from a council estate in Leith, and he discovered penicillin by fucking accident!


We are all in this together, chemists/medics/herbalists/PATIENTS!! whatever, the problems come from the managers who don't know science (or rigour), the shareholders who don't appreciate the term, "long term investment", and mostly I reckon from the accountants who see short term savings, and see short term bonuses for themselves and not longevity for the companies they are supposed to be helping (see - marconi etc)


Sorry that was so long, but I feel really strongly about my motives for good old fashioned medical research, that is being pharmed out of europe cos it's cheaper elsewhere.


I would also like to add that my eyes have been opened recently about big pharma practises in places like India. Like how they routinely bribe doctors to prescribe their medicines, paying them with holidays, cash etc. The west is no different, they just pay them in ways that aren't illegal. That makes me sick, I am so glad I don't work for big pharma anymore, but that does not mean that what they are working on and selling is not valid or useful

[Geko]

^^

My friend is a medical sales rep. He has a doctor he calls Dr Nandos. If he brings her a Nandos when they meet, she will buy his drugs.

[maltloaf]

Around a week ago, I had an amazon order going in and I'd just been reading this thread and thought I'd try some out. Sure enough they are available there so I added them on.

Had one every evening before work (I work nights) and placebo effect, actual effect or whatever; the fact is I have had far more energy and get up and go and alertness since I have been drinking this stuff.

My wee has also gone the fluorescent colour others describe.

All of the "Science" aside, I've felt better taking these.

malty

[CzarJunkie]

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CJ - (in reference to indigestion tablets addressing only the symptoms) just make your diet more alkaline. Which means more fruit and vegetables in your diet


SP - Fruits are usually acidic as they contain citric acid, so they cannot increase the alkilinity of your diet - but I definitely agree with this - more fruit and veg is the way forward. There are medicines called "proton pump inhibitors" which cause your stomach to produce less acid, and alleviate the symptoms of indigestion or acid reflux, which I suffer from personally. I have also taken one of these for a while, but like one poster I am a bad patient and would rather make medicines than take them. Also, as this medicine is a preventative, it has to be taken all the time just the same as the medicine that fixes only the symptoms, so big win for pharma on cure AND prevention
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You may well be a chemist but you clearly know nothing about the effect certain foods have on the acidity or alkalinity of the human body. Most fruits, even citrus, have an alkaline effect. Do some research.

CJ - That's because pharmaceuticals have a long history of killing people. Herbals don't.


SP - Nature is full of substances that kill, she is not so innocent. Plenty of organisms produce toxic materials that are designed to kill not cure. Now I know that you are talking about herbal remedies here, but if your argument is that natural means safe, then I am afraid you are ill-informed (morphine, asbestos (shit yeah, I never knew that was natural either!), mercury, arsenic, snake venom, anthrax, formaldehyde, cosmic radiation from the sun, pufferfish, plenty toxic mushrooms, belladonna (deadly nightshade), ricin, hemlock) - sorry I don't have examples of herbal remedies that kill, but then I did google "herbal remedies that kill" and it appears that while on their own they may not kill, they can interact with other medicines/substances you might be taking in a bad way.
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This is simply not an argument. I never mentioned a natural substance that was dangerous. If you can find one instance of a herbal product killing someone I'd like to hear of it. It's well documented that pharmaceuticals kill thousands of people annually. If we had a more integrated health care system we might prescribe herbs such as St Johns Wort for mild to moderate depression as they do in countries such as Germany. Instead of drugs such as Prozac which have side effects and questions as to their efficacy.

I have to say here though, CJ, I get from this thread that you own or work at a company promoting or selling herbal remedies, sorry if I am wrong. As such, you may also be in the same position as pharma companies, where your products must make money for you to continue. These herbal products are not held to the same rigourous standards that pharma companies' are, and this is usually because they are not marketed as pharmaceuticals, because if they were, the FDA etc would demand proper clinical trials involving mucho cash. I would be willing to wager a significant sum of money that if all available herbal remedies were subjected to the same trials that pharmaceuticals were expected to pass, that a not insignificant number would fail those trials. I don't say this to be inflammatory, but the discussion here has been about two different industries which run on different rules.

Wrong again. Any herbal product sold in the EU that makes claims has to be registered as medicinal and has to have passed rigorous standards.

[Stinky Pete]

- You may well be a chemist but you clearly know nothing about the effect certain foods have on the acidity or alkalinity of the human body. Most fruits, even citrus, have an alkaline effect. Do some research.

A quick google search tells me that indeed citrus fruits do have an alkaline effect on the blood, so yes this is something I clearly know nothing about - can you explain how this happens or point me to a good explanation of this? The original point about stomach acid does still stand though, citrus fruits do not have an alkaline effect in the stomach because they are acidic.

- This is simply not an argument. I never mentioned a natural substance that was dangerous. If you can find one instance of a herbal product killing someone I'd like to hear of it. It's well documented that pharmaceuticals kill thousands of people annually. If we had a more integrated health care system we might prescribe herbs such as St Johns Wort for mild to moderate depression as they do in countries such as Germany. Instead of drugs such as Prozac which have side effects and questions as to their efficacy.

I think an integrated healthcare scheme would be great, over-reliance on pharmaceutical products is certainly not the best way to maintain a healthy society. I also think that pharma companies have created this bias towards drugs and away from natural remedies. The use of herbals should be explored further, as long as their safety and efficacy is proven using rigorous clinical, double blinded, and reproducible trials.

It is undoubtedly the case that pharmaceuticals kill lots of people, would you prefer a world without them entirely? How many more people would die every year without the help that medicines provide?

- Wrong again. Any herbal product sold in the EU that makes claims has to be registered as medicinal and has to have passed rigorous standards.

I was aware that this was the case, but I'm not so sure about what the standards are. Do herbal remedies have to undergo the same clinical trials that new pharmaceuticals do? A new medicine will undergo about 8 years of clinical trials before it gets to market, is this the case for herbals?

I'll happily admit that I don't know much about the herbal side of the healthcare industry, and would be happy to be educated by someone in the know

[JonEp]

A question for those in the known, what effect is all this yellow pee of excess vitamins having on the kidneys ?

[Sanj[UK]]

A question for those in the known, what effect is all this yellow pee of excess vitamins having on the kidneys ?

^^ this. I'll do anything to stay away from kidney stones. 1 of a few things i never want to experience.

[beerman]

^^ this. I'll do anything to stay away from kidney stones. 1 of a few things i never want to experience.

By that comment are you saying you are increasing the chance of kidney stones by taking Berocca or decreasing the chance?

[evilsatan]

I think he is just curious, not saying either way.

[Geko]

By that comment are you saying you are increasing the chance of kidney stones by taking Berocca or decreasing the chance?

He probably has the same attitude as me. I currently have 2 large ones, I don't know what they are doing with them yet, but they are too large to pass. I don't want to go through the pain again, so I will be avoiding anything dubious, which Berocca is one. I pretty much only drink water these days, mainly because of that.

[akimba]

I been on the Berocca for bout 3 weeks and feel an improvement especially at night I am tired and ready to sleep as I use to find it hard to sleep but also more awake in the morning and actually do some work at work in the mornings now rather that just surfing the net while I wake up ;-)

If I should bin Berocca due to asphamine wot should I take instead