Should the UK remain part of the EU under the current rules (before re-negotiation).

[GTI]

I noticed recently that a lot of politicians are eager to stay "in" - could this be because of all of the free European holidays they can get going to "meetings"?

I keep hearing people saying we should leave to stop all the immigrants entering the country but by leaving the EU wouldn't this stop Europeans coming in easily? If a person were from, for example, India they have the same hurdles to jump to get in as they always have done. It's not that easy to get into this country if you are from outside the EU - even if we left...

Or am I completely wrong here?

One of the possible scenarios if we left the EU is that free movement of EU citizens remains. This is because we would need to re-negotiate bilateral treaties either with the EU as a whole, or individual member states. And their conditions for trade or some other benefit might be that we have to accept free movement. This is currently the case with Switzerland (non EU), any EU citizen has the right to live and work in Switzerland. As a result of that the biggest immigrant populations here are Italian, German, French and Portuguese.

The main argument for BREXIT in my mind is not to stem the tide of EU immigration, but to gain greater control of our affairs.

[ilscuro]

I have always wanted out but an extra plus is voting out is a vote against Camoron and Corbin, and that's fine with me

Can't believe some of the crap Camoron and Osborne have been spouting as well, World war 3 indeed.

[hoponbaby]

One of the possible scenarios if we left the EU is that free movement of EU citizens remains. This is because we would need to re-negotiate bilateral treaties either with the EU as a whole, or individual member states. And their conditions for trade or some other benefit might be that we have to accept free movement. This is currently the case with Switzerland (non EU), any EU citizen has the right to live and work in Switzerland. As a result of that the biggest immigrant populations here are Italian, German, French and Portuguese.

The main argument for BREXIT in my mind is not to stem the tide of EU immigration, but to gain greater control of our affairs.

Although the free movement would probably be a condition it should be possible then to restrict the benefits payable to non British citizens - stop the child benefit paid to children who aren't in the UK etc. Control over policy rather than the ridiculous attempt at a negotiated emergency brake.

The shit that is being spouted by all politicians at the moment is beyond belief. Still waiting for them to say anyone with a German shepherd or French poodle will have to have them put down in the event of Brexit.

[piggzy]

Received POLL card today.

Suppose I should do a bit more research and make more of an informed decision other than listening to the spouted bullshit coming from both sides.

It's not like we will get a second vote.

[ilscuro]

Don't be to sure piggzy, if we vote out they may just have another one until we vote to stay.

[Mr 250]

I don't even care anymore if we stay or go and I won't be voting.
No matter what the outcome may be, we will get taxed more, the rich will get richer, corporations still won't pay their taxes, jobs will be lost, etc.

[piggzy]

I don't even care anymore if we stay or go and I won't be voting.
No matter what the outcome may be, we will get taxed more, the rich will get richer, corporations still won't pay their taxes, jobs will be lost, etc.

Sadly you are right !!

[GTI]

No matter what the outcome may be, we will get taxed more, the rich will get richer, corporations still won't pay their taxes, jobs will be lost, etc.

Although it pains me to admit it, being arsey and militant about their rights and wages hasn't done the French a great deal of harm. In Britain we scoff and curse strikers, but in France workers will often down their tools in solidarity with their fellow workers. We have been brainwashed by the ruling classes, in cahoots with the fourth estate (the media), into handing over our rights wholesale in exchange for trinkets like more jobs, cheap consumer goods, cheap loans, home ownership etc.. but now they are taking that all away and there is little we can do about it other than blame immigrants and curse the the EU for our woes.

[rmj2663]

Right, so can anybody tell me where I can find some unbiased facts about the consequences of leaving Europe? So far all I have heard is scare mongering bullshit! Job losses, no work, no trade with USA and rest of the world, 2 years of recession etc, from Cameron and anybody else he can lean on for comment. On the other hand, the leavers are stating - we will be fine. The date to vote is getting nearer and me, along with 95% of the population have no idea where the truth actually lies, so the side that can tell the scariest stories will no doubt win. Unless of course someone has a source for unbiased fact.

[GTI]

Right, so can anybody tell me where I can find some unbiased facts about the consequences of leaving Europe? So far all I have heard is scare mongering bullshit! Job losses, no work, no trade with USA and rest of the world, 2 years of recession etc, from Cameron and anybody else he can lean on for comment. On the other hand, the leavers are stating - we will be fine. The date to vote is getting nearer and me, along with 95% of the population have no idea where the truth actually lies, so the side that can tell the scariest stories will no doubt win. Unless of course someone has a source for unbiased fact.

The truth is nobody really knows.
Its like trying to solve a mathematical equation with too many variables, its not possible. And there are far too many variables e.g. what conditions post BREXIT will the EU impose on Britain? what will big business choose to do? what trade deals will be able to negotiate out there on our lonesome? Will the Tories begin to rescind rights post BREXIT or will they harmonise with the EU etc..

[rmj2663]

The truth is nobody really knows.
Its like trying to solve a mathematical equation with too many variables, its not possible. And there are far too many variables e.g. what conditions post BREXIT will the EU impose on Britain? what will big business choose to do? what trade deals will be able to negotiate out there on our lonesome? Will the Tories begin to rescind rights post BREXIT or will they harmonise with the EU etc..

Exactly my point, who ever can make the public shit themselves most wins!
So far blinkered joe public has had the options of: leave and UK goes down the shitter for years - or stay and put up with same shit- with loads of immigrants stealing your jobs, and common sense stays out of the window with Brussels Rules.

Dont think Joe Public has a fucking clue TBH

[ss30]

Right, so can anybody tell me where I can find some unbiased facts about the consequences of leaving Europe? So far all I have heard is scare mongering bullshit! Job losses, no work, no trade with USA and rest of the world, 2 years of recession etc, from Cameron and anybody else he can lean on for comment. On the other hand, the leavers are stating - we will be fine. The date to vote is getting nearer and me, along with 95% of the population have no idea where the truth actually lies, so the side that can tell the scariest stories will no doubt win. Unless of course someone has a source for unbiased fact.

Nobody knows, no one has done it before.

[BigBird]

My thoughts on the risks of leaving the EU.

Will our human rights be affected? NO
The European court of human right is nothing to do with the EU. It has jurisdiction in the 47 countries which are members of the Council of Europe, which includes Russia and Turkey who are not part of the EU.

Will trade be affected? NO
We import more from Europe than we export to Europe.
In the interim period between the NO vote winning and the final break with the EU there will be at least a couple of years during which the majority of EU countries will want to negotiate mutually favourable trade deals. These are supposedly intelligent people. They are not going to cut off their noses to spite their faces. Politicians in countries like France, Germany and Italy will be under extreme pressure from their politically influential car manufacturers to get it sorted so that they don’t lose out to Japanese and far-east car manufacturers. Additionally other countries outside the EU will see an opportunity to negotiate a better trade deal with the UK, without the slow stifling bureaucracy of the EU getting in the way. Getting a better deal by cutting out the middle man so to speak.

Do migrants really help the economy of the UK? NO
The majority of migrants entering the country are unskilled. A large percentage of the wages they earn does not go back into the UK economy. Instead it gets sent to their family in their home countries. We have plenty of jobless unskilled people to do this work and whose wages would go back into the UK economy. It would also save the UK a fortune in jobseekers allowance and social security payments.
More UK citizens in work means more money being spent in UK shops which in turn means more VAT being collected and more shopkeepers in work so more income tax being collected as well. That in turn leads to less being spent on social security and other benefits. With a reduced council tax and housing benefit bill the local councils will have a better chance of balancing the books, which means better policing and public services and less need for cuts in social care for the elderly and steep council tax increases.

Will there be job losses? NO
It will take at least two years for the transition to take place and new trade deals should be in place by then so there should be few job losses, if any. Any that do happen would probably have happened anyway and will be nothing compared to the possible increase in public service, social care and hospital jobs, which will be affordable from the money the UK can save by leaving the EU – that is as long as we can trust the government and local councils to invest the money in those areas.

Are companies likely to leave the UK and are new companies more likely to avoid the UK? NO
With more favourable trade deals being put in place and unrestricted trade with the rest of the world I think the UK will be a more favourable place to trade from.

Will wages drop? NO
Why would they. If anything they are more likely to rise. The abundance of migrant workers prepared to work for minimum wage has kept wages down and greatly increased the profits of big business - and small businesses as well I would guess. Why would a local builder pay the proper going rate for a local UK bricky, carpenter, plumber or plasterer when a migrant worker will do the same job for minimum wage?

Will house prices drop? NO
Even without migrants there will still be a housing shortage, so why would house prices drop? If they did drop then that isn't a bad thing anyway. If you are selling your house and the price has dropped, then so has the price of the new house you are buying. Anyway no one is saying they would drop, but they may not increase as predicted, which is a good thing for first time buyers. Personally though I don’t see how leaving the EU can affect house prices in any way.

Will the value of the pound be affected? Maybe, but only slightly and not for long.
This isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Countries sometimes deliberately devalue their currency for a number of reasons: One Reason is to boost exports - which in turn leads to an improved balance of payments (exports increase and imports reduce). A short term devaluation of the pound may prove to be financially beneficial for the UK

Our housing, schools and health care can’t cope now, so what’s it going to be like in another five years? Investment in our infrastructure is never going to keep pace with the rise in population from EU migration. We need migrant workers but we should be more like Canada, Australia and New Zealand by only taking in the skills that we are short of in the UK. As part of the EU we don't have that option and as a consequence it places restrictions on the number of highly skilled workers we can take in from other parts of the world.

In a few years many of the recent migrants into Germany and other EU countries could be granted European citizenship. With the growing popularity of far right groups in Germany and Austria and armed with their newly gained European passports, they may feel that their best bet is to move and settle in the UK. We as part of the EU will be powerless to stop them.

The common market seemed a good idea back in June 1975. Especially if the newspapers and politicians of the time were to be believed. We have since learned not to believe what we read in newspapers and even less so what our politicians tell us. The common market that my parents agreed/voted for in 1975 is nothing like the EU we have today. Your grandparents, parents, and maybe you yourself were deceived back then. If they knew the truth of what was to unfold over the next four decades they would have voted NO in 1975.

41 years later you finally have the power to right this wrong by voting NO in 2016. (">

[BigBird]

Regarding the false fuel claims made by Volkswagen:

While US drivers have been offered a generous compensation and buy-back deal, Volkswagen has refused to provide any compensation or goodwill payment for UK customers. Source: Which! magazine - June 2016.

Well so much for European unity and looking after your fellow EU members. Germany will do as it pleases and fuck the rest of us. It proved that by inviting migrants into Europe without consultation with other member states. They still have the need to be supreme leaders over everyone else. That hasn't changed in the last 100 years. (">

[DavidF]

My thoughts on the risks of leaving the EU.

Will our human rights be affected? NO
The European court of human right is nothing to do with the EU. It has jurisdiction in the 47 countries which are members of the Council of Europe, which includes Russia and Turkey who are not part of the EU.

Will trade be affected? NO
We import more from Europe than we export to Europe.
In the interim period between the NO vote winning and the final break with the EU there will be at least a couple of years during which the majority of EU countries will want to negotiate mutually favourable trade deals. These are supposedly intelligent people. They are not going to cut off their noses to spite their faces. Politicians in countries like France, Germany and Italy will be under extreme pressure from their politically influential car manufacturers to get it sorted so that they don’t lose out to Japanese and far-east car manufacturers. Additionally other countries outside the EU will see an opportunity to negotiate a better trade deal with the UK, without the slow stifling bureaucracy of the EU getting in the way. Getting a better deal by cutting out the middle man so to speak.

Do migrants really help the economy of the UK? NO
The majority of migrants entering the country are unskilled. A large percentage of the wages they earn does not go back into the UK economy. Instead it gets sent to their family in their home countries. We have plenty of jobless unskilled people to do this work and whose wages would go back into the UK economy. It would also save the UK a fortune in jobseekers allowance and social security payments.
More UK citizens in work means more money being spent in UK shops which in turn means more VAT being collected and more shopkeepers in work so more income tax being collected as well. That in turn leads to less being spent on social security and other benefits. With a reduced council tax and housing benefit bill the local councils will have a better chance of balancing the books, which means better policing and public services and less need for cuts in social care for the elderly and steep council tax increases.

Will there be job losses? NO
It will take at least two years for the transition to take place and new trade deals should be in place by then so there should be few job losses, if any. Any that do happen would probably have happened anyway and will be nothing compared to the possible increase in public service, social care and hospital jobs, which will be affordable from the money the UK can save by leaving the EU – that is as long as we can trust the government and local councils to invest the money in those areas.

Are companies likely to leave the UK and are new companies more likely to avoid the UK? NO
With more favourable trade deals being put in place and unrestricted trade with the rest of the world I think the UK will be a more favourable place to trade from.

Will wages drop? NO
Why would they. If anything they are more likely to rise. The abundance of migrant workers prepared to work for minimum wage has kept wages down and greatly increased the profits of big business - and small businesses as well I would guess. Why would a local builder pay the proper going rate for a local UK bricky, carpenter, plumber or plasterer when a migrant worker will do the same job for minimum wage?

Will house prices drop? NO
Even without migrants there will still be a housing shortage, so why would house prices drop? If they did drop then that isn't a bad thing anyway. If you are selling your house and the price has dropped, then so has the price of the new house you are buying. Anyway no one is saying they would drop, but they may not increase as predicted, which is a good thing for first time buyers. Personally though I don’t see how leaving the EU can affect house prices in any way.

Will the value of the pound be affected? Maybe, but only slightly and not for long.
This isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Countries sometimes deliberately devalue their currency for a number of reasons: One Reason is to boost exports - which in turn leads to an improved balance of payments (exports increase and imports reduce). A short term devaluation of the pound may prove to be financially beneficial for the UK

Our housing, schools and health care can’t cope now, so what’s it going to be like in another five years? Investment in our infrastructure is never going to keep pace with the rise in population from EU migration. We need migrant workers but we should be more like Canada, Australia and New Zealand by only taking in the skills that we are short of in the UK. As part of the EU we don't have that option and as a consequence it places restrictions on the number of highly skilled workers we can take in from other parts of the world.

In a few years many of the recent migrants into Germany and other EU countries could be granted European citizenship. With the growing popularity of far right groups in Germany and Austria and armed with their newly gained European passports, they may feel that their best bet is to move and settle in the UK. We as part of the EU will be powerless to stop them.

The common market seemed a good idea back in June 1975. Especially if the newspapers and politicians of the time were to be believed. We have since learned not to believe what we read in newspapers and even less so what our politicians tell us. The common market that my parents agreed/voted for in 1975 is nothing like the EU we have today. Your grandparents, parents, and maybe you yourself were deceived back then. If they knew the truth of what was to unfold over the next four decades they would have voted NO in 1975.

41 years later you finally have the power to right this wrong by voting NO in 2016. (">

I'm quite happy to agree that each side claims worst case scenario but sorry the above is either wishful thinking or blind ignorance. Just lol TBH.
I'm just enjoying myself in Poland right now. Long live the Eu


Sent from my P8000 using Tapatalk

[flumperino]

I'm 99% certain that we'll vote to stay in.

The remain campaign has been like a juggernaut of scare tactics and propaganda - it has been completely relentless. The leave campaign doesn't really feel like it has properly mobilised (partly because the media haven't let it).

I think that even some of those planning to vote leave right now will get to voting day, wonder whether if even some of the remain arguments could end up being true....and then vote remain to be on the safe side.

60% win for remain is my forecast.

[ilscuro]

Funny, because i'm 99% certain we will vote to leave

[Lestronics]

I'm 99% certain that we'll vote to stay in.

The remain campaign has been like a juggernaut of scare tactics and propaganda - it has been completely relentless. The leave campaign doesn't really feel like it has properly mobilised (partly because the media haven't let it).

I think that even some of those planning to vote leave right now will get to voting day, wonder whether if even some of the remain arguments could end up being true....and then vote remain to be on the safe side.

60% win for remain is my forecast.

I'm 99% sure that I'll vote out

[burner1]

I'm for out. If it was such a great idea and worked for it's members, then some of them shouldn't be in the shit they are.

[AD]

Which ever way we are screwed.....