Brexit Aftermath

[piggzy]

I totally accept the democratic vote, I can still have my own opinion about what a fuck up the leave voters caused.

Are you completely sure the leave voters caused it ?? Is it not the inability of the remain campaign to show a valid reason to vote in that caused it.
Personally I flip flopped a number of times between in and out before deciding 2 or 3 days before the vote that I COULD NOT VOTE because I could not find facts !!!!

The whole thing was a fuck up start to finish !!!

[Bald Bouncer]

Are you completely sure the leave voters caused it ?? Is it not the inability of the remain campaign to show a valid reason to vote in that caused it.
Personally I flip flopped a number of times between in and out before deciding 2 or 3 days before the vote that I COULD NOT VOTE because I could not find facts !!!!

The whole thing was a fuck up start to finish !!!

That was the problem it was hard to give facts, you had the facts of the reality of being in the EU and no one pretended it was wonderful, the leave campaign tried very hard to paint a picture of utopia and could claim whatever they wanted as it really had nothing to base it on people could draw from as no one had ever left before, all the economists, world leaders, scientists etc who warned anything from it being very bad to a disaster the leave side just wheeled out the same old argument 'they have been wrong before' but although true on occasion it was more a case of not seeing things coming or under estimating a disaster they had never been wrong on this scale with scenarios set out for them but they could not get that argument across and I couldn't on here being shouted down.

The result is although early days having the effect I very much and a minority on this forum predicted but I gain no satisfaction from that I would rather have been proved totally wrong, I would rather not be looking at a pound now only worth $1.33 knowing the consequences of this and be sure the damage is being played down by all politicians and media for obvious reasons and the people who wanted to leave are still high on the drug of winning to really accept what they have won, be sure the poorest and most vulnerable will be hit the hardest and quickest and the rich who wanted to leave will still be rich and a rise in prices won't effect them as you know they will make the masses pay as with the banks.

I so want to be wrong but just the fall in the pound to the levels it is now economically spells out what is going to happen, I have no doubt people will argue with what I say but in the coming weeks and months they will either be able to prove me wrong and I hope they will be able to or if not start accepting the reality of what voting to leave has done.

[Over Carl]

I think that's very unfair, lots of them are, but not all of them.

I'm guessing there are probably at least one or two good guys in ISIS, but you don't hear people talking about them for good reason. Joint enterprise is a phrase that springs to mind. It's up to politicians to decide which parties to join and remain with, and if they stay with parties that prove to act against the interest of the public and associate with the biggest gangsters in the country then obviously their names will get tarnished despite intentions.

I have been giving quite a bit of thought to the very notion of a referendum since Friday. And I can't come up with a sane reason for holding one to decide any issue and certainly not the most important issues.

As an electorate we elect those we think are the most capable to represent our interests. Surely one of the reasons we do this is because members of the general public cannot be expected to be informed on every single issue that affects our lives. And in the case of something like the EU, surely the more expansive the issue, the more we need professional politicians to make those choices on our behalf?

I like to think I know a little, but I expect my MP to know more on these matters and to see through the hyperbole and sensationalist headlines in the media. They should therefore be able to make a more informed decision on my behalf. Why else would we elect them? So, on reflection, it seems very strange that politicians aren't trusted to make decisions which will have the biggest impact on society, such as leaving the EU. Instead it's left to a largely clueless electorate who are easily swayed by the media.

Imho that would be ideal, but we would need to trust our politicians (who would have to start telling the truth and generally behaving in the best interests of the general public) for that to work.

Edit:

Are you completely sure the leave voters caused it ?? Is it not the inability of the remain campaign to show a valid reason to vote in that caused it.
Personally I flip flopped a number of times between in and out before deciding 2 or 3 days before the vote that I COULD NOT VOTE because I could not find facts !!!!

The whole thing was a fuck up start to finish !!!

As discussed, trust in politicians is low, and I suspect this strengthened the leave vote. In any circumstance I would consider it irresponsible to just vote on promises made by politicians* as I assign higher value to a sheet of toilet paper than a promise by a politician. Add mistrust of politicians to the mix, then I am really struggling to understand how voters can blame other people for exercising their own free choice. Obviously this is a bit of a tricky situation as it's hard to find facts on an unprecedented situation. However the opinions of numerous experts in their fields have been easily available for anyone to find both before and after the referendum.

* Why did Cameron live up to this election promise? Everyone seems to say he "had to do it", but he didn't. It's an election promise. I take those things as seriously as a life long alcoholic drunk out of his head at 9am promising he will never drink again.

That was the problem it was hard to give facts, you had the facts of the reality of being in the EU and no one pretended it was wonderful, the leave campaign tried very hard to paint a picture of utopia and could claim whatever they wanted as it really had nothing to base it on people could draw from as no one had ever left before, all the economists, world leaders, scientists etc who warned anything from it being very bad to a disaster the leave side just wheeled out the same old argument 'they have been wrong before' but although true on occasion it was more a case of not seeing things coming or under estimating a disaster they had never been wrong on this scale with scenarios set out for them but they could not get that argument across and I couldn't on here being shouted down.

To answer that, as ridiculous as it sounds, the answer was lies. No one expects politicians to tell the truth or live up to their promises. The remain camp should have told us that we will all receive a £1000 cash bonus and income tax will be halved if we vote remain, then add this to their list of promises politicians have failed to deliver. Telling facts only works when both sides play the same game.

[CzarJunkie]

Imho that would be ideal, but we would need to trust our politicians (who would have to start telling the truth and generally behaving in the best interests of the general public) for that to work.

I agree. It only works if the politicians are selflessly working on behalf of their constituents.

[piggzy]

I so want to be wrong but just the fall in the pound to the levels it is now economically spells out what is going to happen, I have no doubt people will argue with what I say but in the coming weeks and months they will either be able to prove me wrong and I hope they will be able to or if not start accepting the reality of what voting to leave has done.

Even when I was swaying towards Brexit I fully expected the drop in the pound and personally expected this to be for months I think anyone who thought / thinks otherwise are deluded.
I always viewed any Brexit gains as a long term thing. Only time will tell now.

Sadly though as the current government are making such a mess of things they too are impacting this and making things worse.

[koola2]

Sadly though as the current government are making such a mess of things they too are impacting this and making things worse.

I hope in the future history shows it wasn't just the vote but what those in power did afterwards that caused such problems. They should listen to Mr Clarkson saying "Right. We should have 24 hours of despair and moaning, and then we will all have to roll up our sleeves and make this shit shower work".

https://twitter.com/JeremyClarkson/s...50798112710660

[rmj2663]

I don't believe there is, or was a Plan for after Brexit, as I don't believe they thought they could win. This dithering instead of getting things moving is causing more damage than good. Yes it was a shitty result, but we need to try and make the most of a bad situation.
Until things start moving you won see the £ recover against the USD,which will compound any detriment if it drags on for too long. I know of at least one UK based global company that has sent round memos stating recruitment and invest is on hold for a minimum of 2 years, which has rather fucked a lot of people off. Especially as it gives foreign competitors a chance to get a foot in the door over the next 24 months, making it even harder after 2 years for them to get back into the market.
Failing to plan is planning to fail. So it looks like its going to be rough ride.

[Detector]

personally I think the markets will recover quickly enough, we might have to accept some form of free movement if we trade with eu but we don't have to open the doors to everyone. I have always said we should take in more families from Syria, including and especially Christian ones. I think its a great thing that we voted to leave. after all the scaremongering on all sides I'm relieved we just have a finality in view and the quicker we are out the better for me.

[Bald Bouncer]

personally I think the markets will recover quickly enough, we might have to accept some form of free movement if we trade with eu but we don't have to open the doors to everyone. I have always said we should take in more families from Syria, including and especially Christian ones. I think its a great think that we voted to leave. after all the scaremongering on all sides I'm relieved we just have a finality in view and the quicker we are out the better for me.

Not quite sure what you mean 'some form of free movement' it's either free movement or not but as they have come out today and basically said the UK can't cherry pick and 'The principle of freedom of movement of people is one of the "four freedoms" - along with goods, capital and services - that underlie the EU's internal market' it suggests no free movement no deal/s

[Lestronics]

Don't the EU also need trade deals with the UK to satisfy there own economy's? seems all one sided to me ! inciidentally I voted out and I would still vote out again if it ever arises, for me it wasn't just about immigration. it's a big world out there, lets get trading worldwide. Did you know that you can fit the whole of Europe into Australia and theres still space left, just thought I'd share that bit of trivia ...........

[Mule]

Don't the EU also need trade deals with the UK to satisfy there own economy's?

They want it, but we'd have to agree to the terms other countries make dealing with the EU. They can't give us an unfair advantage. In fact, they probably have to give us a worse deal to show to other countries that quitters don't prosper.

[Bald Bouncer]

Don't the EU also need trade deals with the UK to satisfy there own economy's? seems all one sided to me ! inciidentally I voted out and I would still vote out again if it ever arises, for me it wasn't just about immigration. it's a big world out there, lets get trading worldwide. Did you know that you can fit the whole of Europe into Australia and theres still space left, just thought I'd share that bit of trivia ...........

Our loss far outweighs any other countries, I tried to explain this in the other thread but no one seemed to get it but I will try again, we do 400 billion plus trade with the EU, the biggest value we have to any EU country is Germany with around 96 billion, so no other country has anything like we have to lose, Germany is a thriving economy and they have already made clear they are not willing to make any sort of trade agreement without free movement of people as have the other main players, other countries will fall into line as Germany can say we have the most to lose in trade terms and still we are willing to sacrifice that for the fundamental principles or the EU, some other countries have a trade deficit with the UK and will have no interest in making any deals, this means any loss to the EU is spread between member states so the 'hit' is not really that big for any.

You have countries with strong movements for them having a referendum to leave the EU gathering pace due to the UK vote they also want if not need to show leaving the EU is a disaster another reason to play hardball, you also have to consider it would increase trade between the remaining EU members if the UK is locked out, I have no idea what this represents but as a fictitious example if say France loses it's contract to supply red paint to the UK and Germany no longer buys red paint from the UK they would probably then buy more red paint from France, hope that makes sense.

[CzarJunkie]

Did you know that you can fit the whole of Europe into Australia and theres still space left, just thought I'd share that bit of trivia ...........

And those who voted leave claim they aren't stupid............Here's more trivia for you, The EU has a population of over 500 million. Australia has a population of 24 million.

Hmm, can you guess who we do more trade with? I'll give you a clue, it's not Australia.

[DJ OD]

Speaking of Australia... That's where you will probably find cameron and boris after christmas...


DJ OD

[Lestronics]

And those who voted leave claim they aren't stupid.............

Don't class me as stupid, why you feel the need to belittle those that voted to leave is beyond me? the trivia was just lighthearted banter, the world is a big place and we'll survive as we did before we joined the EU and without there complete control on us.

[BertRoot]

People seem to keep going on about the control the EU had overcome us being their big problem.

Can you list me the five things that you are most bothered about the EU controlling and why you picked them?

[Lestronics]

People seem to keep going on about the control the EU had overcome us being their big problem.

Can you list me the five things that you are most bothered about the EU controlling and why you picked them?

1. Fisheries
2. Agriculture
3. Export Control
3. EU law is supreme over UK law.
4. Immigration
5. Rules and Regulations

[MHP]

And those who voted leave claim they aren't stupid............Here's more trivia for you, The EU has a population of over 500 million. Australia has a population of 24 million.

Hmm, can you guess who we do more trade with? I'll give you a clue, it's not Australia.

Check the population density maps. In Australia the population gravitate towards the east coast, with 24 million people and 3 million square miles, the Australian government can manage this. The UK is 95 thousand square miles with a population of 65 million and we are part of a political experiment that guarantees free movement to 600 million people. These people will gravitate to the most successful areas and governments will not manage.

We did trade with Australia extensively until the Asian economies got their acts together after the war and took advantage of their locality. With modern global shipping and the best goods in the world we can trade with them again.

[Mule]

3. Export Control
3. EU law is supreme over UK law.

Awesome.

[Mule]

we are part of a political experiment

What isn't a political experiment? The whole point of democracy is that it can be changed.