MPS vote on an outright BAN of hunting with dogs

**Chip2k** · 3rd July 2003

after reading the above posts I cant see any good reason to keep fox hunting, im all for a ban

**The Prodigy** · 3rd July 2003

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Originally posted by Pigeon Every tried costing up a fence for all the farmers farms
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Perhaps the up-front cost would be quite large but I wonder how it would compare in the long term with the cost of running the hunts year after year. I imagine the cost of housing all those dogs, horses, employing all those people etc. must be pretty expensive. Anyway, effective fencing isn't that expensive - try here:

http://www.electricfencing.co.uk/index_40.asp

and there's some further alternatives http://www.huntinginquiry.gov.uk/ev....smore.htmhere.

Anyway, you talk as though there's thousands of miles of fencing for each farm. It's not like that and I'm sure a farmer from Oz would laugh at the amount of fencing an average UK farmer would need.

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Originally posted by Pigeon Besides you don't think the various groups usign the land would protest at the miles and miles of steel fences ruining the landscape.
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Not if they are hidden by hedgerows.

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Originally posted by Pigeon Killing vermin is a bit different from running 2 dogs to fight to the death for no reason
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Simply calling them names doesn't diminish the fact that they are still sentient creatures!

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Originally posted by Pigeon Lets have a humane way then, one thats reliable, not just mindless killing of any/every fox, one thats practical.
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Assuming it's even necessary which I very much doubt (remember my source that stated the fox population is self-controlling?), at least we shouldn't make a "sport" out of it!

Try re-reading what I posted earlier: "The fox can in no way be regarded as a pest on arable, dairy or beef farms. Foxes can even be beneficial by virtue of their diet of small mammals and rabbits which can damage crops and reduce available grazing."

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Originally posted by Pigeon How does a fox hunt, isn't that stressful for its prey as well, amybe we should give it a knife, teach it to kill humanly? Its natures cruel circle
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A fox kills because it has to, to survive. It does not kill for anything as crass as its own entertainment!

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Originally posted by Pigeon Our predatory insticts are/were the same the foxes again its natures circle, just man got clever.
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Strange that he can't keep the critter out then isn't it?

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Originally posted by Pigeon Mass murder/extermination or the killing of the weak/most likely to stray to kill the vinerable livestock?
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Do you think the hunt cares about whether their quarry is "weak" or not. Of course not. In fact they prefer a fox to give them a "good" run for their money.

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Originally posted by Pigeon At the end of the day the fox does the same to its prey
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Because it *has* to! It doesn't make an informed choice like we do.

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Originally posted by Bash from brainwashed propaganda biased web sites?
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What? You mean MAFF? The Government's Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food? Dr D.W. Macdonald & P.J. Johnson, Wildlife Conservation Research Unit, Oxford University? Countryside Agency and Forestry Commission ? etc. Or did you just mean the LACS website? I thought I provided a varied selection of credible sources. Does anyone else disagree or is it just you? Anyway, don't resort to attacking the source - challenge the data if you can!

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Originally posted by Bash I've never heard of a farmer to both charge and breed foxes for profit neither do I believe you.
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I'm not sure about farmers doing it but I can tell you for sure that the hunting industry does indeed help foxes breed and thrive. If

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Originally posted by BENJAMIN HERBLE here again phykell with your usuall cut and paste from the LACS website.
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If it gives the facts, I'm more than happy to reference it. Anyway, like I said before, I've provided a varied range of sources. Surely even you can't deny that?

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Originally posted by BENJAMIN HERBLE as i said before if a fox looked like a rat nobody would give a dam.
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Lucky Mr Fox then! Anyway, I think rats are cute.

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Originally posted by BENJAMIN HERBLE if you want to protect the nice furry fox then you best go out and ban the car as this is the biggest killer.
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Off-topic but perhaps the farmers should pay road tax on their tractor fuel then to help us motorists who are doing them a favour.

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Originally posted by BENJAMIN HERBLE at the end of the day lacs and the rspca are just making a nice tidy profit off the back of anti foxhunting.
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Perhaps, but that doesn't make fox-hunting any more acceptable. How about you stay reasonably on-topic?

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Originally posted by BENJAMIN HERBLE the biggest killer of animals in this country is the rspca the majority of the money does not go to the care of the animals it goes to the fat cats in there nice offices.
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LOL - Start a new thread then!

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Originally posted by BENJAMIN HERBLE how about the poor rats poisoned to a agonising death you would be better campaining for the rodents i can't see a differance between a fox and a rat.
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Actually, now you mention it, perhaps if our farmers were more responsible and made more effort to protect their livestock with, for example, fencing, the foxes would help keep the rat population down!

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Originally posted by Pigeon hehe I'd rather they didn't kill the foxes, its a need
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Prove it then! I'm happy to provide yet further evidence that fox-hunting is both ineffective and unnecessary but it would be nice to see at least some evidence to the contrary before I make the effort.

''phykell'' Overclockers member

**4me2** · 4th July 2003

I bet this one is going to cause some confusion amongst the Tree huggers as to who to feel sorry for here:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2003302470,00.html

**Thrush** · 4th July 2003

where is the confusion?

Tree huggers care about the environment and animals... So you already know the answer to your question.

**wizer** · 4th July 2003

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2...02480,,00.html

you fuckers still think the fox is a lovely animal?

**CountZero** · 4th July 2003

Fox bites girl in bed

But that's the only occurence of such an incident i can find, on the other hand there are multiple occurences of dogs killing or seriously injuring people, and yet not only do we not class dogs as 'Vermin' and hunt them down and slaughter them, we prize them as pets.

We had a fox set at the bottom of our garden, under our shed for about 3 years, and never had any problems with them, certainly far less than the neigbours' cats

**wizer** · 4th July 2003

hmmm

I have heard at least 3 stories in the last year of foxes attacking humans. Last year a fox crept into a home and took a new born baby from a mothers arms while they slept and had it for its dinner. awww fluffy foxey

As for dogs. The laws of this country will put down a dog that has proven to be fatal and for most breeds of dog now you have to put a muzzle on it in public. Dogs are far more inteligent than foxes as they have been one of the few animals who have given up their hunting instincs to be truely domesticated. The population of dogs is far far greater in this county than the population of foxes. So the percentages dont work out when you try to compare it to fox attacks.

**monsta** · 4th July 2003

Originally posted by wizer
The population of dogs is far far greater in this county than the population of foxes.

hahahahahahahahaahahhaahahahaha

**The Prodigy** · 4th July 2003

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Originally posted by Bash The only verifiable source I could quote from would be biased links such as yourself. I would rather argue the case from my knowledge and experience than from opinonated web sites.
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But you are only one person. You say my links are biased but they include independent reports by experts in the field. Surely you agree that you, I and the other readers of this thread deserve and want to hear from them rather than just one person's subjective opinion? The sources I quote are used to back up my claims, nothing more. I'm not interested in promoting propaganda. I am interested in dispelling the myths regarding fox-hunting and if I can find any reasonable source to support my admittedly subjective opinion, I will. Further, I believe that this is in fact the best and most practical way for one person posting to a forum, to express his opinion - by linking to external, quality sources. Once again, I will ask you to contradict anything I've said or claimed with supportable evidence. Can you do that?

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Originally posted by Bash As to trying to tell posters that they are only intelligent if they agree with your opinons and sources then, well I'm laughing my head off at the moment.
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Again, you're reading it wrong.

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Originally posted by Bash At the end of the day Phykell, there are those that enjoy hunting and those that don't. I as a hunter would never try to ram hunting down your throat with the anger and hatred of an anti and so I would expect the same respect back or how can we ever have a civilised debate on the issue.
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No, at the end of the day, hunting WILL be banned and there's nothing you can do about it. I will not tolerate hunting because it involves and actively encourages hideous cruelty to sentient creatures. This is far better justification for arguing a case than a bunch of people being prevented from carrying out the torture, maiming and killing of defenceless animals. That's the difference between the antis and the pros. The antis are passionate about their case for a decent reason. the pros just want to hang on to an outdated, barbaric and morally reprehensible practice.

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Originally posted by Bash I am a free man who wishes to carry on hunting. It doesn't affect you so why should you take this freedom away from me?
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Because you are deliberately torturing, maiming and killing defenceless animals for your own enjoyment. I will never rest until what you call "this freedom" is taken away from you and your like.

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Originally posted by Bash I see you ride a bike, if the majority decided it was killing too many people and wanted it banned with the conviction you show, would you sit back and not be heard as you wish for me to do?
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I don't mind listening to you as long as you present a decent case. I haven't heard one yet, nothing I couldn't answer anyway.

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Originally posted by Bash Your arguments for anti hunting hold about as much water as mine.
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You have presented no evidence. I have. I can show video evidence of the animals being tortured and eaten alive. This is physical evidence which you cannot deny. I can prove that the majority of the people in this country want this abhorrent practice stopped. You can't. I have an argument based on my moral convictions. Your argument is based on the fact that you simply want ot be allowed to continue the grisly practice of chasing sentient creatures to exhaustion, setting a pack of dogs on them and having them eaten alive, at the end of which, you probably go and celebrate with your friends at the demise of poor Mr Fox.

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Originally posted by Bash Who wins?
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At the end of the day, Mr Fox will win and isn't that the real killer argument? That we antis are not doing it because we will gain from it, whereas the pros have (according to them) everything to lose. Sounds to me like we antis are not the ones with the subjective and biased opinions coloured by any particular interest in the banning of hunting other than the welfare of a sentient creature.

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Originally posted by Rich_L I've said this many times before, but the internet has certainly made one thing very easy, and that is debating your point of view, as no matter what you feel about a subject, I can guarantee that there is a website with an expert testimony or evidence to back up the way you feel about something.
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...and your point is?

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Originally posted by Rich_L Obviously phykell has put forward many sources of evidence which would appear to suggest that fox hunting must be banned, so just to prove a point I'll post some google results Ive briefly found.

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But the points you post do not refute the points I made! I have never said that foxes should be shot rather than hunted with dogs though I do agree with this statement. In fact, I've always said that I do not believe foxes need to be controlled at all! It's simple, if the food is not available, there will be fewer foxes. The onus is on the farmer to protect his livestock by, for example, adequate fencing. No-one has ever shown me that this isn't feasible. Try and find a source that proves me wrong!

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Originally posted by Rich_L Case for hunting rather than shooting:
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Interesting argument but then it doesn't discuss what happens to the foxes that "escape" the hunt. Are they assumed to just "get over" the experience and live to serve as hunters' quarry another day? Or is it possible that the stress and/or exertion or injuries sustained may cause fatalities either directly or indirectly.

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Originally posted by Rich_L Job Losses
�The Burns Committee itself expressed some doubts about the accuracy of the figures... ...up to 13,900 full time job equivalents and 36,000 jobs (including part time) dependent upon hunting. The majority of these exist within the horse industry.[/b]
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Rather than refute such a claim I will use my common sense and point out the report written by Douglas MacMillan (Environmental and Rural Resource Economics Group at the University of Aberdeen - no, not some "biased" web-site!) with the title "After Fox-Hunting: The Potential for Alternative Employment". I made mention of this in an earlier post. I'm not about to repeat myself here, but in a nutshell, it suggests that drag and bloodhound hunts represent a cruelty-free alternative to mounted fox hunting. It also makes many other important points - try reading it!

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Originally posted by Rich_L One thing which does interest me is the use of 'sentience' as a justification for not killing something. How do you define sentience? Where does it begin and end? Can you differentiate animal intelligence from sentience?
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I mean it can experience sensation and feeling. In other words it can feel the hounds ripping it apart and eating it alive, let alone the emotions it must feel as well.

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Originally posted by Rich_L As an example, some people may view affection from animals as a sign of sentience in that the animal makes a conscious decision to show affection, others may view it as the animal is intelligent and ensures its care by playing for the owner, however this could be instinctive behaiviour rather than sentient consciousness.
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There is compelling evidence to suggest that animals are capable of morality. What do you think of that? Perhaps we've been under-estimating these animals all this time...

[Source] - the BBC in case you're wondering...

Also check [here] though I must warn you that it is a website on vegetarianism This discusses an experiment which provides evidence of moral values in macaque monkeys and I don't think the fact that the evidence being presented on a "biased" website really affects the validity of the experiment either, do you?

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Originally posted by Rich_L I also presume that 'cruelty' to 'non-sentient' creatures is ok then? I assume that this is where fishing comes in? By all means, the methods of fishing is pretty barbaric, im interested in your position on this.
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I do not fish and I would not choose to and certainly not unless the fish was being caught for food or some other reason. However, I believe this is pretty far off-topic as the debate is about stopping hunting with dogs. Perhaps if, as a result of discussion and reasoned debate we come to understand that fishing for sport is also wrong, we can then address that issue. However, it is important to tackle the issues in a practical manner and not try and tackle them all at once.

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Originally posted by Rich_L How about the hunters have a moral conviction that they are entitled to what they do, perhaps they feel that your moral convictions are overblown, and that you place far too much value on the supposed 'sentience' of these (in their eyes) vermin. Because they disagree with you does not make them morally reprehensible....
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They must have a strange sense of morality if they believe an animal should be hunted to exhaustion and eaten alive by a pack of dogs. Can you think of a more grisly death for an animal? Perhaps they just like to lie to themselves and pretned that the animal really does die by the attack of the mystical "ninja lead dog" which delivers a single, deadly bite leading to instant death! Are you really expecting me to believe that they feel morally justified in slaughtering a sentient creature in such a way? Or do you actually believe that they couldn't really care less how the animal suffers or even what happens to it? I'd like a direct answer to this please.

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Originally posted by Bash First of all, I apologise I obviously read some of your points wrong.
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No problem

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Originally posted by Bash Or maybe I didn't? Why do you always feel the need to add that little dig. Are you trying to provoke a reaction out of me? Why did you feel the need to degrade your post in this way?
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Oh, no, and I thought you were being nice. OK, no I didn't have a dig, I was making the point that you wondered if I was being aggressive when it's you that actually choose to take part in the senseless, and cruel slaughter of another living creature.

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Originally posted by Bash My point earlier is why or who are you to do this to me, what is this a democracy or a dictatorship. Your statement just hardens my conclusion that anti's are blinkered in their view and would not listen to reason even if it was presented to them under their noses. This sounds more like the truth of why you want it banned, this dictoral shortsighted, unlogical hatred driven fundamentalist opinion is all the reason antis have for banning it. My respect for your opinion is running a little thin now.
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I agree with one point you have made. My opinon is based on a fundamental idea and that is that I will not tolerate the inhumane treatment of a living creature whether it's a fluffy kitten a Siberian hamster (AKA rat) or even an ant. No matter what you say, no matter how many jobs will be lost, at the end of the day the goal of the hunt is to chase a living creature to the point of exhaustion and have a pack of dogs eat the animal alive, all at the direction and behest, and for the sick, sadistic pleasure of a group of human beings.

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Originally posted by Bash I thought my stance was quite clear. You are right that I haven't presented a case yet as I have only just started posting in the last 2 pages and I have been doing nothing as yet than arguing points that have been raised.
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I wish! you've mostly been just attacking my sources by trying to discredit them! Some of them you've tried to discredit just because what you term a "biased website" has seen fit to link to them or quote them! This is not arguing, it's mere heckling.

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Originally posted by Bash Is their any point in wasting my time yet again trying to put a case to anti's when MOST of them won't listen? Hmmmm There really is no point in me backing up my experiences or knowledge with web sites as I have said before, they would not be acceptable to you. Nothing is better than experience anyway and I know that what I right will be an opinion that I would agree with rather than someone else�s. After all Phykell your links to papers are all opinions as well even from well meaning so called scientists.
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Well, perhaps we should all should all just rely on our uninformed opinions. Myself, I've seen what happens at a hunt. I can point you to the videos. I would link to the pictures but for the fact that they are too horrific to post on a public forum as some people may be shocked. If the hunt really was as natural, necessary and cruelty-free as you pros claim, why does it need to be hidden from our eyes? Why do you not welcome monitoring by observers with video cameras? Why is the hunting fraternity so overly aggressive to reporters and concerned individuals. Why do the pro try to make this an issue of country ways vs city ways? Why do the pros always claim that the antis are turning this into a class issue? Why do many farmers not want you on their land? Why is it not common knowledge that the dogs may spread more disease and cause more deaths to the farmers' livestock than the fox?

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Originally posted by Bash I'm still confused about your argument as you yourself have not made yourself clear. What are you against? Dogs hunting and ripping a fox apart or the people who follow it?
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I've made myself perfectly clear. I'm against both. I'm against the animal being killed in such a way and I'm against the fact that it is done by people who call it sport.

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Originally posted by Bash It's the way of things, life and death.
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The difference is, there isn't a pack of humans managing the spectacle and cheering it on. What would you say if wildlife programs began breeding certain animals to place them together to see them fight? Would you object to that? Why exactly and what is the difference?

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Originally posted by Bash It is impossible to ban a dog from hunting, logic tells us this as it comes naturally to them. Is this what you want to debate about or is it just the fact the you can't stand to see people following it?
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There are no wild dogs roaming the UK and the dogs in question are bred specifically for the purpose of hunting foxes. Of course, there are actually some hunts who organise the breeding of foxes just to hunt them! In fact, this has a long history. Fox-hunters have managed land and created coverts to encourage the fox population just so they have enough foxes to hunt! What's your argument to justify that then? I expect a direct answer to this!

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Originally posted by Bash Hunting for me is not necessarily about the kill. It�s about using my natural instincts to stalk and chase. To see another animal doing what comes naturally to it, being a part of the internal workings of nature as it happens. These are best experienced while hunting as all your senses are on maximum at the time.
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and surviving for the fox is not just a pastime or recreation!

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Originally posted by Bash Sometimes it ends in a kill but believe me the best chases are when the fox has outwitted the dogs, that always brings a smile to my face as they're always the best chasing days.
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That won't exactly make Mr Fox feel any better though, will it?

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Originally posted by Bash You see the animals at their maximum witnessing feats of agility you would never see otherwise, nature at its best. Never have I heard anyone in a pub bragging about a kill. It just isn't done.
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The rest of us watch wildlife programs! Can I suggest a safari instead? Apparently, you can witness nature in all its raw nature there as well.

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Originally posted by Bash The hunt is not about the kill. Is this what you wish to debate? Then I would say that your or anyone else�s whether scientist or not, argument against it would be very week without any experience or understanding of it. I would challenge you by saying In my experience, I believe that the anti-hunt platform is based, not on concern for animal welfare, but just on one of social prejudice.
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It's the animal's suffering I will not tolerate and your last sentence is just typical of the pros resorting to trying to derail a simple argument: hunting animals with dogs is inhumane.

'phykell' Overclockers

P.S)) @ whatever Mod changed my name under my avatar to TREEHUGER I would like to say THANKS! You seem to use the term treehuger as an insult????????? Indeed I am a treehuger and LOVE animals and plants is this a bad thing????

**wizer** · 4th July 2003

lefty what the fuck is all this shit you're posting?????

**The Prodigy** · 4th July 2003

It's from a member of overclockers, he is VERY anti fox hunting like me but unlike me he is very good with his English and makes anyone in favour of Hunting look a complete TWAT as everything they say he has contradictory answers backed up with independent reliable Evidence.

Basically shows fox hunters for who they really are!!

Counting down the days untill the BAN

**xdam** · 4th July 2003

Originally posted by The Prodigy
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P.S)) @ whatever Mod changed my name under my avatar to TREEHUGER I would like to say THANKS! You seem to use the term treehuger as an insult????????? Indeed I am a treehuger and LOVE animals and plants is this a bad thing????

np, it will be 'Most Boring Member' soon.

**wizer** · 4th July 2003

why are all these hippy fuckers such smug c*nts?

left why is it that you have skirted round all the issues posted by the pro hunting members and just bored us with your fluffy views?

and who fucking cares about some prick off another board?

**The Prodigy** · 4th July 2003

Whatever, I would MUCH rather be boring than a cruel evil person that gets turned on by seeing a poor defenceless animal chased for hours and then ripped apart!! That's just sick and the majority of the U.K agree with me, that�s why it WILL BE BANNED! lol

Going to have the biggest party I have ever had when it gets banned, cannot wait!!

**xdam** · 4th July 2003

/me hands The Prodigy a tenner.

get yer hair cut and get a life while yer at it.

**kjun** · 4th July 2003

Originally posted by The Prodigy

Going to have the biggest party I have ever had when it gets banned, cannot wait!!

"thats 2 bottles of ginger beer and a salad, and both members of my local green party are coming round, cheers"

**Detector** · 4th July 2003

hey prodigy, reading through this post has made me want to buy a gun and go out and shoot some foxes, i know where there is a family of them and im off in about 30 mins to get a gas powered air rifle.

ill send you one if you want, you can cook it and use the fur for gloves - sorted

**wizer** · 4th July 2003

Originally posted by The Prodigy

Going to have the biggest party I have ever had when it gets banned, cannot wait!!

fuckme your an odd one m8.. this concerns you that much? You need to get out more.

and you're wrong about public opinion.. 99.9% of this country couldn;t give a flying fuck about a few fluffy fucking foxes.