MCSE training course, where?

[jackroo]

Yeah I see what your saying, I applied for a new job today as Systems Analyst also known as help desk, just sitting with the guys though wa dead impressed, they do more stuff in 10 minutes than I do in a month working in computer operations. So hopefully will get some good work related experiance from there. Will keep in touch about how you get on and what path you take, and I will do the same.

I am not earning that much on 13.5k at the minute working 2 days a week for 13.5 hours. And job I applied for is for 14k which I would get anyway this year from old job if was not being made redundent or accepting redployment.

I hope to be earning around 20k a year fairly soon, as can get a good mortgage with that and finally leave the pit, i mean home. I really think it depends on where you go to how much you earn however I believe that shift work is always good in IT, I would rather work 4 days on than 4 days off or whatever than work a bog standard sad old 9-5.

[MaxP]

bah all this discussion over CCNA and MCSE is confusing poor Willy......
all he wants is a foot into IT...

look at it this way....
what job is realistic for a first time IT jobber ?
you are going to be looking at 1st line support or simular.

which skills are more suited to a 1st line support person ?
an indepth understanding of network topologies/routing and TCP/IP or a more broad understanding of MS related issues ? files/printing/OS's etc

i tell you know that with an MSCE you are going to make yourself far more employable as a first time IT jobber than you will if you have a CCNA.
ture that after a few years in the trade a CCNA will help you to take a few more steps up the ladder. but at this point i cant see it helping at all.

the whole issue as to if MCSE/CCNA/Etc are a load of old tat is pretty redundant........no one is going to turn you down becasue you have an MCSE.....but many people will employ you because you do.

remeber that many people who make the decision to employ someone are not It savvy them selves.....they cannot really judge your knoledge by speaking with you..but they will appriciated a proper MS certificate...
on the same token people in the trade that are well aware are not going to take vast notice of the MSCE but these sorts of people will easily be able to see past the MCSE and gain a far better idea of what you are actualy capable of.

[MaxP]

just had an idea.....

if you can easly commute to south london, then i can easily swing a week/few days work exsperiance....unfortunaly you wouldnt get paid...but it really would be worth the effort and make all the differance to your CV.

i work for a very very large multinational...extreamly well know brand name..

[jonescmt]

I am not trying to bash the mcse what I am trying to say is that to get a foot in the door you don't need the whole MCSE and as stated before MCSE was damaged badly and the stigma still sticks because of the Two week boot camps to clued up employers, they can spot a booter over someone who has good experience and does deserve the recognition of the MCSE. At one time you could say you had MCSE and bang you were employed, now look at any half decent jobs in IT and the add wants MCP MCSE CCNA UNIX Networking skills, I remember when they just said MCSE.

I believe that with a couple of MCP's and a CCNA it opens more doors. There would be heavy expectations from a prospective employer from someone showing an MCSE and that sort of expectation cannot be learnt in the classroom or at home.

Sure if you just want to be a 1st line desktop mouse swapper and have you re-booted it yet, dont bother with the CCNA However if you want a good decent career you need to have a good understanding of networking essentials remember the majority of IT link uses a cisco Router, switch. etc. These are obviously only my opinions but then I meet on a daily basis many IT managers Market Data Engineers and these are there feelings as well I did it this way and with OTE I earn around 60k a year

[jackroo]

Sorry jonescmt, not having ago when I said bash. I get what your saying.

[jonescmt]

Thanks did not take it personally. I just think once willyboy gets his foot in the door his career will find its own direction, and this may well take him the route of MCSE or CISCO or SQL or something completely different the industry is huge and its more about perception. I would rather take somebody on at an early stage and train them up in the direction their career progresses. Rather than someone with no experience but a piece of paper saying they are Sh*t hot (but really their not). Trust me I met a man with the bit of paper and after a few probing questions he said Ha you cannot trick me TRACERT is a Reuters Specific product as he thought the RT bit meant REUTERS TERMINAL. I am sure you will agree that TRACERT is a basic microsoft concept that even an MCP should know but this guy was an MCSE on paper. Did not last long in our department.

I started doing the MCSE early in my career but had the all round skill to back it up and not get caught out, but since then my career has moved in all sorts of directions, and now MCSE is a very small part of the skill that I need. I have a reasonable amount of knowledge in a lot of different areas. Bit of Microsoft bit of UNIX bit of Cisco. Employers will mould you along the way. but most importantly the people you join will give you all the support and knowledge you need, and in return you will build strong relationships and spend many a good hour in the PUB talking about birds and football. Good Luck I hope you do succeed whatever you choose to do.

[MaxP]

"get CCNA and a few mods and you can get a well paid job in IT... none of that mice swapping and rebooting for you.....you can earn 60k like me"

do you work for computeach by chance ?

never gonna happen for 99.99% of peoples.......
if you have to take you chances with the rest of the dirty unwashed you have to be realistic.
when looking for work you are selling yourself.
this is who i am , this is what i know, this is what i can do....
this is how much im going to cost you.

a person with no exsperiance and a handfull of paper dosnt actually have very much to sell.... they are 10 a penny.....chomping at the bit....hundreds of em everywhere.

if i need someone to look after my servers is that person gonna represent good value ?
no they are not....im not buying that person....
there are far too many people with considerable more exerpiance, who will work for a very reasonable cost.

if on the other hand i need a new chap to take over 1st line phone support...hmmmm the blokes got certificates...he is obviously very keen and interested...he seems like a nice chappy...
ok im not going to pay you a fortune but i would consider giving you a crack at the whip.

im giving that person a hand to the first step of the ladder....

what they do from there is their own business...
but get on the ladder first befor you even get ideas of significate roles paying decent money.

maybe it works different in your trading enviroment...
but my time with Reuters, Varoius trading houses, CIBC. left me very much with the impression these are some of the most strigent places when it comes to getting value for money out of their IT staff...
they pay top dollar and exspect the very best....

well they paid me a fortune all them years a go.....but then again my pc rebooting skills were held in awe by all.

wish Willy and Jack the best of luck....
maybe one of you may land that plum role first time around.
if not do not be embarrised about starting at the bottom, all the best chaps i know/worked with started at the bottom...
in my book anyone who hasnt learned the ropes from the ground up normaly isnt worth the effort it takes to listen.

the point about trying your best to get some exsperiance of any discription on your CV is still golden advice im sure anyone will agree.
offer still stands for getting some work exsperiance with me, i wouldnt be able to wangle you any money but did i mention allready the bar onsite with 3 largers contenetal largers on tap ?
the Till ? no where to be seen !!!!

gotta be worth a few days of your time to radicaly inprove your sellabiltiy above poeple who have not.

[jonescmt]

nice piece you hit the nail on the head, no dont work for Computeach, notice you put worked for Reuters, That's who I work for, like you say started at the bottom worked my way up Worked for ICL saw the light and jumped ship as soon as possible. Few nods and a ccna will hopefully get you into a half decent bottom of the rung position rather than reading a Sheet with tick boxes and then moving out to india to sit with the other illiterates reading the tick sheet

CV definately good advice, all in all I think Willy gets the Picture that he does'nt need to waste £1000.00's chasing a piece of paper.

Max P like the sound of your onsite bar and I am sure if willyboy takes advantage of your offer he will have a great time.

You are right couple of mods and CCNA dont count for anything if you cannot sell yourself.

[MaxP]

Computeach ....LOL
i was only tugging...

i think you have been more helpful to the people on the forums than anyone i know in the first 5 posts..have some K+
good show on you....

yes i did work for Reuters way way back.
it was my first proper IT role, dispite what i said in my post i was one of the 0.001% that managed to get a very nice role first time around.
like many of the chaps here i had held a long time interest in PC's
my driving force was wanting to play games and smurf prawn on teh net..
no different from any other bloke...

i saw an advert for a lowly installation chap for a company based in SW16 close to were i lived. i think the chap must haved liked what i was selling...
i was frank in that my commercial exsperiance was lacking.
he pointed at a desk piled high with pcs and kit and told me to build a pc.
15 mins later dosed with plenty of freindly chitter chatter and theres a PC booting to bios.

the chap gives me the job...he tells me to start monday at Reuters head office in tower hill. it turns out the company in streatham called Ruggles sole purpose is to provide installain of RTW's for the planning consultants.
if i recall it was a chap called mark who ran it...i think what happened is that he was original contracted do to a few installs and when the jobs increased he took the intiative and he mamanged to make a deal to supply additonal staff and he would manage the staff and all the installs himself.
you cant help but have the greatest respect for the chap and to boot he had started at the bottom himself, there was nothing he would ask you to do that he wasnt 100% capable of doing himself just as well.
something rare nowdays.

of course on my Cv it says i was contracted to Reuters, i only go into detials about the middle company if specificaly asked for.
and that really have helped me to sell myself for many years now.
it led to a role with a brokarage called Liberty E. im sure they were taken over by cantors who i heard where puchased by yet a larger outfit.
then on and so forth.....

into my 4th year with current firm...getting itchy feet ...
maybe you can speak with some of yer contacts see if anyone is looking for someone like me....

ah Willy and Jack....just tohught....see that shameless begging above ?
its fair fair more productive if you can find roles via friends family anyone you know. a personal introduction to a company is far better than fighting thru the agencys.......there a nessesary evil but avoid if you can.

[jonescmt]

Lots of the big players merging Prebon and Tullets was the latest, Cantor Fitzgerald not sure on them but they are currently moving from America Square by Tower hill to Docklands maybe followig Reuters who closed 85 Fleet Street, TMS and Comm Quay by Tower Hill. All moved to Docklands now opposite BOA and HSBC.
RTW still got a few of them out there not many though Triarch got renamed RMDS Most engineering has now been outsourced Ironically for me to a company called Fujitsu Services AKA ICL (DAMN) But a massive project is coming up MOIP and DOIP excellent acronyms Matching over IP and Dealing over IP it is said that we are going to be swamped with OOH overtime from mid April right through to 2007 evenings weekends etc, Ill keep an ear out for you send me your email if you want and I can let you know if Fujitsu start recruiting for it. send to jonescmt@tiscali.co.uk

Agreed on Agencies although I started through a little company MSB International I hated the attitude of the people opportunity makers money takers. Willy boy If you do go contracting dont get tangled up in the register as a company and speak to our nominated accountants who will show you how not to pay tax by telling the Taxman you only earn a £100.00 a month and taking director loans that you never pay back to the company, Maybe they have closed these loopholes now but beware.

Max P thanks for the kind words on my posts maybe I need to come and try out your free bar.

rgds
Chris

[willyboy]

Wow, thanks for putting in all the the time and effort.

Max P have sent you a PM about the work experience offer.

Where should I start. Firstly, im not looking to get the highest paid job in IT to start off with, all I want to do it get within a company and eventually get them to pay for any additional courses that I would require, and as far as I believe the MSCE would suit me best, as it is a general all round course of knowledge, which would enable me to take a more varied role to start off with. In the end im not entirely sure of what area of IT that I would like to do, I quite like to idea of networking, as they always seem to fuck up and always need work done. Maybe thats just mine lol

I do understand that the more experience you have the further it will take you, but as far as I understand and have been told, if you don't have qualifications then companies wont even look at the CV. But, if you have qualifications then the second thing they look at is your experience, and if you don't have ay then you will be put to the back of the queue, which is understandable. Its a shame to say that I do not know anyone in the IT world, most of my mates dabble in it at home, but nothing corporate wise. Bastards! At the end of the day I completly understand that agencies are only there to make money, and don't give a flying toss about the actual person, so I would like to try and avoidf them as much as possible.

Thanks for all the great advice, you have helped me tons!

[jackroo]

I think once you do that work experiance as was offered you should be ok. I have worked as media librarian, computer operations and have learnt fuck all. I applied for a job for user support, I think this is the way to go to gain experiance. Either software or hardware.

Your gonna find out allot more about systems, system problems etc with a job like this.

Thats my personal opinion on the best way to get a foot in the door. From here you could specialise down the line in networking, hardware support etc.

Personally I try to stay no more than a year in a job at the minute, as I find after that you have gained all the knowledge from that job. Man I had an interview the other day User Support I soo want that job, looked like you learn allot there, the guys who already worked there where all studying for the MCP and CNNP. So I believe its a natural environment to be learning more about these areas.

[jackroo]

Ooooh also, what about computing degree, how do you guys that work in the computing industry feel about them? what are they worth? compared to someone with some of the above mention qualifications?

[jonescmt]

No Computer degrees for me just the professional qualifications. Don't know anybody really in the area I work in that has a computer degree, I know there must be some, but they are keeping them quiet. I think as far as the industry feeling, A degree represents the ability to learn and absorb information, but again its just a piece of paper. Personality and Experience, thats what nails the jobs.

The usefullness of Degrees come into their own in graduate entry programmes. Company I work for reguarly takes on Graduates.