What is civilised?

[BBK]

I'm reading a very interesting and thought provoking book at the moment - Roots by Alex Haley. Whilst reading a section about how the black captives were lined up in cages whilst the white purchasers laughed at them and made monkey sounds, I began to think what is a civilised culture.

In the West we are dominated entirely by money. We work to earn money so we can buy food and pay for a roof over our heads. We distance ourselves from other human beings - there is clearly no community spirit left, apart from in a few odd situations, and the family unit is ever shrinking. We destroy everything we touch, and kill anyone who doesn't agree with our perspectives on life. We have a long history of trying to force our views, opinions and culture on others that we deem less intelligent.

Compare this to a society where people live at one with nature, grow their own food, keep their own animals. Where the community is central to life, and the family is an important factor in everyone's life. Where violence is not tolerated, and crimes are punished swiftly and effectively. Where everyone works hard for the benefit of everyone, not just for their own selfish needs.

Where did we go so wrong? Or, in your opinion, did we even go wrong?

[4me2]

Compare this to a society where people live at one with nature, grow their own food, keep their own animals. Where the community is central to life, and the family is an important factor in everyone's life. Where violence is not tolerated, and crimes are punished swiftly and effectively.

I think you are seeing things a bit rosey eyed because these same communities you describe also have a history of killing their neighbours . Your last sentence also to me doesnt occur anywhere and its wishful thinking on your part if not even hypocrical in structure. How are these violent crimes that are supposedly not tolerated swiftly dealt with then if not by other violent means?

[BBK]

Of course any retaliation is violent, but if its done in the eyes of the law it is somewhat different don't you think?

[Roach-Rampino]

I think you are seeing things a bit rosey eyed

Agreed. In certain African tribes, less civilised than ourselves, a long standing tradition of sleeping with your dead husband's relatives as a way of "sexual cleansing" seems to have an affect on effectively spreading AIDS

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/05/11/news/malawi.php

[BBK]

Just like to clarify I didn't actually say my utopian idyll existed! The section of the book that got me thinking is set in 1768, so times have changed a little

[maverick_15]

Would you want to live in your utopia?

[BBK]

Would you want to live in your utopia?

Excellent question. Truth of the matter is I know I am fully a child of Western society and would be incredibly bored. I'm not suggesting that anyone should consider swapping our lives, but I look at what I do for a living, and just see utter futility, its all so pointless. Reading a certain section in this book just got me thinking about a society that can degrade another human being to such an extent, how can we consider ourselves civilised? We tend to categorise anyone who doesn't have the same advantages as us as stupid, and the reality is that no one race has a better capacity for intellect than any other.

[rmj2663]

Humans have never been a peace loving species.
There have been many times over & over of mass 'genocides' not only Hitler, but the appalling Rape of Nanching, the Romans during their empire days weren't nice, nor the mongols, and even tribes today in Africa cant leave along side other tribes.
I'm afraid this Utopia has never existed and never will.

[BBK]

You're all so pessimistic

[super mike]

Pessimistic or realistic?

[BBK]

Both maybe.

[CzarJunkie]

Compare this to a society where people live at one with nature, grow their own food, keep their own animals. Where the community is central to life, and the family is an important factor in everyone's life. Where violence is not tolerated, and crimes are punished swiftly and effectively. Where everyone works hard for the benefit of everyone, not just for their own selfish needs.

I don't think a society like that has ever existed anywhere or at any time. Not on a large scale anyway.

Man is an animal. Wars, conflict and violence will always be a part of every society. We're hardwired to reproduce, protect and provide. Those 3 basic instincts are incompatible with any kind of socialist utopia.

While I have some very liberal and socialist views I am also a realist.

[coin-op]

While I have some very liberal and socialist views I am also a realist.

And you live at one with animals sometimes too don't you?

[Over Carl]

Hmm when I read the op I was in agreement, then I read the next posts and agreed with those.

May I offer a slightly different stance. We maybe no more or no less civilised than other cultures, which is why a westerner that thinks we are the only civilised people in a world of savages is sadly deluded.

Is that a little more accurate?

[MercuryRises]

Hmm when I read the op I was in agreement, then I read the next posts and agreed with those.

May I offer a slightly different stance. We maybe no more or no less civilised than other cultures, which is why a westerner that thinks we are the only civilised people in a world of savages is sadly deluded.

Is that a little more accurate?

broadly speaking "Civilisation" is a word used by more prosperous cultures (for example, the west) to disentangle themselves from the less prosperous.

Wiki describes it as:

The term civilization (British English also civilisation) has a variety of meanings related to human society. Most often it is used to refer to "complex" societies: those that practice intensive agriculture; have a significant division of labour; and have population densities sufficient to form cities. "Civilization" may be used more broadly to refer to the sum, or current extent, of human accomplishment and spread (human civilization or global civilization). Beginning a mere 10-12 thousand years ago with the domestication of plants and animals came settlement, first in the Middle East and Mesoamerica then on all continents, the nomadic communal hunter-gatherer way of life, which is often described as the cradle-of-humanity, was overwhelmed by a more intense way of producing a few basic foods, the first Agricultural Revolution, the Neolithic Revolution occurred. Concentrated agriculture allowed for massive population increases in towns and cities. With settlement, houses and institutions, craftsmanship and the arts flourished. The ownership of land, buildings, artefacts and accumulation of private property meant that they had to be protected and laws, government, the state, armies, patriarchy, marriage, inheritanace - all emerged in this revolution, along with the first class system, slavery, along with considerable inequalities and human alienation. The advances of civilisation had its negative side too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilisation

However as above "Civilisation" is also/has been used by some as an excuse to be incredibly shitty to other people (much like religion)


In agreement with your post "There is no such thing as Civilisation, only different cultures" (if i remember who said it, i'll add that in too)

[BBK]

Hmm when I read the op I was in agreement, then I read the next posts and agreed with those.

May I offer a slightly different stance. We maybe no more or no less civilised than other cultures, which is why a westerner that thinks we are the only civilised people in a world of savages is sadly deluded.

Is that a little more accurate?

Works for me - I cannot argue against ANY of the sentiments posted here so far, it is very interesting. Your comment about how we westerners THINK we are the only civilised is very accurate.

The wiki entry is interesting, in defining civilisation as complexity, in which we are almost as a man less civil to one another. Would it be better to classify this as evolution, and think maybe we've gone past the point of civilisation?

[MercuryRises]

Works for me - I cannot argue against ANY of the sentiments posted here so far, it is very interesting. Your comment about how we westerners THINK we are the only civilised is very accurate.

The wiki entry is interesting, in defining civilisation as complexity, in which we are almost as a man less civil to one another. Would it be better to classify this as evolution, and think maybe we've gone past the point of civilisation?

Almost as if the more civilised we become, the less civil we become?

I suppose its a possible evolution beyond civilisation into a state of greed and egocentricity.