Jeez and here I was thinking maybe my post was too long! And it wasn't even a proper response!Originally Posted by rIKmAN
It's not stupid, it's about reality, you can train until the cows come home but until you are put under the real presure of someone actually trying to knock your head off you could well be wasting your time and this will give you all the answers you need, yes you will get your arse kicked, yes it will all be over in 2 mins max but it will give you the answers you need to either go forward or choose a different direction I am giving you this advice with over 20 years experince and up until 2 years ago fought bare knuckle on a regular basis.
Quite right Bald Bouncer.
I taught Karate for many years, but I'm afraid all of that goes out the window when it comes to a real fight. There really is no substitute for copping one on the nose/chin that was thrown at you with real intention, with no rules or restriction. Then comes the adrenaline dump and in comes the "fight or flight" reflex. I learnt more in three years of "proper" sparring/fighting with some doormen pals than I ever did in 15 years of Karateka and yes, I got my fair share of black eyes/split lips etc.
I am not doubting your have far more experience than me BB - let me make that clear with all the confusion in this thread already!
I do understand what you are saying - never know until your in that situation - and yeah I do agree with that, but only to some extent.
I also see the side of if there is someone who can`t swim, do you push them in the deep end and see if they wanna carry on trying to swim after they have nearly drown, or do you get them in the shallow end, learning slowly and build up to the deep end....?
Starting MMA as a beginner there are lots of things you can`t do, knees, elbows, some you can`t even hit to the head when they are on the floor, and there also the headguards and safety stuff too - so although I will be sparring, it will be with people of a similar ability (to start with) and it will be in a safe environment.
(I`m sure you know all this and more already!)
Do you think this would be adequate to tell me if I want to carry on, or do you think I need to get battered and see if I still want to try after that?
I think I understand your logic, battered = worst case, and if I wanna carry on then it won`t get much worse....if that is the thinking?
I am very interested in you past fightin experience, if you have time to talk about it on here or PM if you prefer? Or not at all, thats your call
Cheers for the info - it is really appreciated!
This is what I have been training in for about the last 12 years Gar Pai although a very incomplete site it has useful information.
Training is obviously needed what I am sugesting is a way to answer your question as to wether it is for you or not, the only way I can explain it is do you think a suicide bomber practicing pressing the button with no bomb tells him if he will be able to do it with a bomb attached, I see nothing wrong in going down the route you sugest as that will obviously give you tools and training with added fitness but no matter how good the training it is a million miles from the real thing at which point your journey will either finish or begin I am just offering you a quick answer as to weather this is for you.Do you think this would be adequate to tell me if I want to carry on, or do you think I need to get battered and see if I still want to try after that?
Cheers mate, gonna have a look at that site now.
I do see what your saying, all the training in the world won`t help me if as soon as I get hit I freeze or clam up etc....fight or flight....adrenaline, emotions etc - I do understand that.
Training is what helps you overcome all of these though, and gives you the technical ability to respond in the right way - so I guess I can see both sides.
Cheers BB - gonna check out Gar Pai link you posted
Edit: (from BBs Gar Pai link)
Wow - So this is for pure no rules street fighting style self defence?With no restrictions ( Because there aren't any on the street ) a bite on the ear, nose, head or other part of the body can break the foes concentration enabling in extreme situations a finishing strike such as elbow strikes or finger strikes to the eyes. Grabbing or striking testicals or grabbing the inside of the thigh will break concentration.
Gar Pai is not meant to be pretty just effective.
You trained in it for 12yrs.... How come you haven`t migrated to any other form of martial art and just stuck with GP?
Because I had already spent years training in other martial arts before finding Gar Pai so the answer is what you want out of what ever you do, if you want to do something that is more of a sport and keeps you fit then you take one road, if you want something that is a mystical acient art from 1000's of years ago that gives you special powers and belts then take another, if you want something that will help you survive real life situations on the street then it's a differnt road, most forms are closed to new ideas and also won't diguard things that no longer work in todays situations, Gar Pai is an open form that adopts anything that works in real life situations regardless of it's origin and for me that is all I wanted or needed simple as that.
Yeah I do know what you mean in terms of the closed forms and still using techniques that don`t really stand up to today.
I have worked in a CatB prison as a screw and we did some Krav Maga in with our main Personal Protection training for control and restraint, disarming prisoners etc etc, and although that was really good, whenever I pointed out something that I thought didnt work if x happened, it was just - "well thats what you do...." - not the trainers fault I know, more the lack of development of the training given to officers dealing with loony inmates! (The krav maga was good, the PP not so)
I guess Gar Pai wouldnt be what I`m looking for - obviously as you`ve said, different goals, different routes - and this convo could go forever and a day, which I didnt realise when I made my first post.
So...to start again (so to speak) and get back on track...and keep it simple
Can anyone recommend a good programme and diet to allow me to lose weight and put on some muscle.....foods, shakes etc, or just meat and veg.
I`m not too clued up on the actual programme, I know your meant to work different body parts on different days etc....
I mean I know I can go and say I want a programme at the gym, but they do so many its usually one of 4 they have pre-done, rather than advice of people who have done it / do it because they like it and pasing on experience.
I`ll be getting myself to the MMA gym in the next week or 2 and I guess I`ll be best off to talk more about that when I`ve had a chat with the guys down there.
Someone asked how old I was a few posts back also - I`m just 26.
Thanks BB, appreciate u takin the time to reply
Quannum is a good gym mate if that's where you go, they are professionally run so discuss your diet with the trainers there, they should be able to sort you out.
Keep us (or me, Kushty and BB by the look of it!!) updated on how you get on, it will be interesting to see if you take to it or not?
Yeah I have spoke to Dave (one of the 3 brothers) a couple of times now, but as I said I hadn`t decided to give a try then, I was just puttin the feelers out, so to speak.
I will get down there in the next week or two and have a proper chat with them, see what they think, and then report back here.
Do you know of / about Quannum? Heard good things?
I agree it will be interesting...as BB has said, until you get smashed in the face you don`t know how you`ll react, but I`m deffo giving it 100% commitment, and thats all I have to give at the mo, until I get better advice from more experienced people than me, so we`ll see
Thanks for the support del!
Edit: Kushty was aimed at me, he wrote a long post advising me etc during all the crap with Beacy and I thought you had wrote it, so only thanked you for a proper response... doh!
My bad, sorry Kushty.
I've never trained at Quannum myself but I've heard good things about them, at least two of the Butlins fight\have fought MMA, I know they have a good pedigree in boxing too.
Are you from that area then or will you be moving to train there (assuming you do?)
Yeah I have heard good things about it too, and all 3 have fought in MMA, maybe only 2 now as you say.
I live in Salford, Quaanum is in Oldham about 30mins away, so no I don`t have to move.
My rough plan outline is that I have joined a Total Fitness near me for everyday working out, weights, cardio, swim, hydrotherapy...they have punch bags and mitts/gloves etc too and I made it a point when I joined that I can have 2 named non-members who can come in with me to hold mitts etc.....they said this is fine.
Then with Quaanum being in Oldham, go there 3+ times a week for the various MMA sessions, Boxing, Submissions etc etc....and get advice from those guys and put it into practice when I go my local gym.
Like i say though, all this is my theory and I don`t know if that will work, but thats the outline I have in my head...
That sounds OK to me.
I reckon once they find out that you are serious about training and maybe one day fighting they will devise a proper training plan for you to do when you are not at their gym.
Also see what daytime classes they do as well as evening classes, numbers will be lower during the day and the instructor to student ratio will be lower so hopefully your game will improve quicker as you will get more one on one time with the instructor.
Unfortunately they don`t do daytime sessions.....start at 4.30pm for 6-11yrs then just the evening sessions, although they do just MMA Fighters on saturdays, which i guess will be sparring for the guys signed to fight for the gym, which might be an option I can look at.
Good idea tho
Thanks for the reply rikman, no worries . If you don't want to do the cutting and bulking phases of training I mentioned before then you need to do weights 2-3 times a week and cardio 3 times a week. It's important when building muscle to allow your body to rest, so you probably won't want to do intensive cardio too soon after weights. Weight training just twice a week with the right diet and cardio can have an incredible effect. However, since you'll have the time, 3 sessions a week might be best. You'd probably split these into legs, chest and biceps for example. Bodybuilding sites will show you the best way to segment the muscle groups.
Consider fartlek training for your cardio. This is essentially sprinting and then jogging (or walking if you're unfit to start with) intermittently. Apparently, it is great to kick start your metabolism to lose weight and personally I think it's more fun than jogging. Also it's more similar to the way you will exert energy in the cage. You have high intensity moments, then 'rest' moments. As I said before, I bet there are specific auxiliary exercises for MMA such as Speed Agility Quickness and exercises that improve core muscle strength. These are muscles that might not become noticably bigger but are important for strength and explosive power (e.g. dumping someone on the ground).
As for diet, it's really a case of how hardcore you want to go. Some people cut out most fats, eat 6 meals a day (3 proper meals, 3 small meals). However some people are very hardcore: protein shakes, egg whites, no fat (well virtually no, you do actually need some fat), soya everything, white meat, waking up through the night to have a protein shake etc. It's up to you how hardcore you want to be.
Good luck with it! I can't be any more help because my knowledge is of weight training for rugby, not MMA, and I think it's important you specialise (as you obviously do, since you've made this thread!) but the information in this section and good bodybuilding websites should help.
if your anywhere near london give london shootfighters a try a very well respected mma gym mate, also try and find a trainer with a GOOD record, who will train you, 1on1 training is much better, but i would recommend taking up classes first though to see how you get on. i would say after a few months of training if you do enjoy it get yourself into thailand and get into a mua thai school there.
Am glad to see this thread back on track, it's very unusual for a thread to go sour in here.
I understand BB's point about getting in the ring and taking a few hits but no trained fighter would unleash their full "100%" on you if you weren't up to ring fitness or a decent standard to defend yourself.
I started boxing with one of my cousins at the Prince Of Wales in Thornton Heath when I was 17 (run by boxing champion brothers Clinton and Winston McKenzie) I trained for 3 months (3 hours twice a week) before I was first allowed to step into the ring and spa properly. Due to the size of the club, most of us sparred with people of similar ability.
About 7 years ago another cousin opened The Spitfire Boxing club with one of Brad and Angelina's bodyguards, Rob Dunn, who is a big bloke with great boxing skills. When sparring with him, he would never "unleash" on any of us as he had years of boxing and ring experience under his belt and could have ko'd most of us no problem. As time went on my sparring experience grew and so did my confidence, to the point where he would hold back less and less, although he never ko'd me.
Back to BB's point, getting into the ring, no matter how fit, well trained, pad sessions, bag work you have done, being hit in the face the first few times is a rude awakening. But that's were the point comes where your instincts and training kick in; you defend, attack etc and learn to box properly. So many guys used to beg not to go in the ring, or after their first couple of rounds never came back to the club. It's a good way to find out if someone really has what it takes.
@Kushty:
re: The training, I`m just doing general get-fit work at the moment, running, swimming, some weights, but nothing structured as such - just to get me started, as I said I`ve dropped a stone already and havent really done too much to my diet.
I am familiar with fartlek training as I have played football to a decent standard and it was involved in a lot of the sessions (due to the stop / start nature of the sport as you say).....only difference being you don`t have people trying to punch your head in when your trying to get your breath back
I do try and do this when running, upping and downing the speed every minute or 2, sometimes stopping for a minute then starting again.....
How does this relate to the Fat-Burning-Zone though....I need my HR to be at 75-85% of my max to be burning fat....should I not be looking to do this at the start?
As for diet - I am not intending on going extreme and eat like a strongman, but I`m open to doing what needs to be done to get the results I want once I have the right info.
There is nothing worse (for me) than me not being sure, I like to look at every angle and be happy that what I`m doing is the best route, otherwise i`m sceptical to put myself 100% into it. That may be why this thread went pear shaped, I tried to cram in too much info cos theres so much I need to learn and get advice on...
I have bought a nice blender / chopper / food system thing and steamer for my veg, and I have cut out fizzy drinks (although I did have some choc last night with MOTD) and a lot of the other crap I used to eat, late at night as well, but no more..
I`m also only having 1 meal a day right now around 5-6pm....although I knwo its better to eat small and regular, I¬m not sure what sorts of food I shoudl be eating, or how important it is when I eat them in relation to trainign sessions for recovery and growth etc.
Thanks for your input mate, much appreciated
@phoenixsingh
I`m in Manchester mate, so London is a bit far at the mo.
Good suggestion with the 1on1 training being better, and I do totally agree with that in casses you don`t get the full attention as there are other students who need time and instruction as well.
As for Thailand, well I`m not against moving to learn if I do get into it, but I would probably look at studying Ju-Jitsu / Wrestling / Boxing as my main core skill than Mui Thai, not sure if this is right or wrong, they just appeal more.
@RoachRampino
Thanks mate - I`m glad too, could you remove all the crap posts when you get time please?
All the other stuff you said I agree with 100% (and with BB), and you have hit the nail on the head between what I was saying and what BB was saying.
Its the fine line, and as you say I wont know what it`s likeo get smacked in the face (by a skilled fighter) until it happens....but UNTIL I`ve done the training and stuff to prepare me for the emotions and anger etc and how to keep them under control and how to react to what is trying to be done to me - it wouldnt be a fair representation of if I was interested in doing the sport.
Your time scale sounds good, I am not expecting to start sparring for at LEAST 3mths, until I`m in some sort of shape and have some of the skills to know what to do in different situations. Sure I`ll always be learning, but to go in knowing nothing is a sure fire way to get any kind of excitement kicked out of me and me never want to try it again. Its like the swimming analogy I made.
When I get some sort of programme sorted, I will post it on here and hopefully you can give your comments / suggestions on improvements or alternatives etc as I know you are very clued up on gym stuff and excercises etc...
I`m open to suggestions and only have a very rough outline in my head right now, which by chatting (to you and other gym staff etc) will become more concrete as time goes on and I can see where I`m going...I think the key is small achievable targets so I don`t get underwhelmed and give up.
Thanks for your reply, its nice to get some proper dialogue going with people who kow more about this stuff than me, so it really is much appreciated.
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