Close

Results 1 to 19 of 19

Thread: Can of worms

  1. #1
    DF VIP Member wijit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,090
    Thanks
    91
    Thanked:        105
    Karma Level
    332

    Question Can of worms

    Man Yoo's trable or Liverpools 5 European cups. Which is better?
    Last edited by wijit; 9th September 2008 at 10:05 PM.
    Apathy? can't be arsed.

  2. #2
    DF VIP Member jamie_h88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    A, A
    Posts
    1,200
    Thanks
    7
    Thanked:        11
    Karma Level
    266

    Default Re: Can of worms.

    man Utd treble because that is on team doing a great and difficult thing

  3. #3
    DF VIP Member BBK's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    here
    Posts
    12,422
    Thanks
    234
    Thanked:        128
    Karma Level
    1083

    Default Re: Can of worms

    Not sure how you can compare. For one season in 99 we probably saw the greatest performance by an English club ever (4 losses in the whole season, fewer than Arsenal's invincible season), but how can you compare that to consistently being the best team in Europe for over a decade, which Liverpool were? United have not come anywhere near to matching that level of consistency. Domestically yes - and have been doing it now for 15 years consistently, but in that time only 2 top level European wins, and those 9 years apart. Liverpool never had one season where they totally dominated, but they dominated in Europe for longer.

  4. #4
    DF VIP Member LFC Muppet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    In my Wife
    Posts
    6,190
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked:        0
    Karma Level
    651

    Default Re: Can of worms

    Liverpool winning the League again will be a bigger acheivement than both of them.

    I think Europe is harder to win now than in the past, so if a team could dominate in Europe now, then that would be a better acheivement than a treble.

    I would give anything for Liverpool to win the league again, and I am so jealous of Manure with regards to the league.

    Sack the Fat Spanish Waiter and get someone in that wants to win the league. I will never understand going to lower league clubs playing for a draw.
    Last edited by LFC Muppet; 10th September 2008 at 10:48 AM.

  5. #5
    DF VIP Member BBK's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    here
    Posts
    12,422
    Thanks
    234
    Thanked:        128
    Karma Level
    1083

    Default Re: Can of worms

    Whether its harder or not is difficult to quantify. Yes, beating the likes of Chelsea, AC Milan, Barcelona etc in the final is harder than Club Brugge, Malmo or St Etienne BUT you had to win your league to be in it - and as Liverpool have proven over the last 18 years, winning the league isn't that easy to win. For me, to be a truly great club you have to display a European dominance, and Liverpool have that. Sure, since the inception of the Champions League United have played more games and won more games than any other team in Europe (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europea...s_League_table) and that puts them in that "nearly great" bracket, but you only have to look a little further down that page to see the three teams that stand out in Europe above all others, and can wear the UEFA Badge of Honour.

    The treble was a one-off, incredible event that may never be repeated. But Liverpool's 5 wins - that is something very special too.

  6. #6
    DF VIP Member -G-Man-'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    The Grove.
    Posts
    5,935
    Thanks
    38
    Thanked:        35
    Karma Level
    603

    Default Re: Can of worms

    dunno about united or liverpool, but Arsenal's Cup winners cup win against Parma in 1994 was pretty good!!

  7. #7
    DF VIP Member gunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    London
    Posts
    8,941
    Thanks
    37
    Thanked:        28
    Karma Level
    1120

    Default Re: Can of worms

    Quote Originally Posted by BBK View Post
    Not sure how you can compare. For one season in 99 we probably saw the greatest performance by an English club ever (4 losses in the whole season, fewer than Arsenal's invincible season), but how can you compare that to consistently being the best team in Europe for over a decade, which Liverpool were? United have not come anywhere near to matching that level of consistency. Domestically yes - and have been doing it now for 15 years consistently, but in that time only 2 top level European wins, and those 9 years apart. Liverpool never had one season where they totally dominated, but they dominated in Europe for longer.
    Spot on as usual.
    Liverpool FC - Pride of Merseyside
    Attention - Use Ebay? - Support DF and use this link when buying/selling/signing up:
    The Digital Forums / Ebay Affiliate Link

  8. #8
    DF VIP Member honestDave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,492
    Thanks
    59
    Thanked:        27
    Karma Level
    379

    Default Re: Can of worms

    Quote Originally Posted by BBK View Post
    Whether its harder or not is difficult to quantify. Yes, beating the likes of Chelsea, AC Milan, Barcelona etc in the final is harder than Club Brugge, Malmo or St Etienne BUT you had to win your league to be in it - and as Liverpool have proven over the last 18 years, winning the league isn't that easy to win. For me, to be a truly great club you have to display a European dominance, and Liverpool have that. Sure, since the inception of the Champions League United have played more games and won more games than any other team in Europe (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Cup_and_Champions_League_records_and_statistics#All-time_UEFA_Champions_League_table) and that puts them in that "nearly great" bracket, but you only have to look a little further down that page to see the three teams that stand out in Europe above all others, and can wear the UEFA Badge of Honour.
    Quote Originally Posted by BBK View Post

    The treble was a one-off, incredible event that may never be repeated. But Liverpool's 5 wins - that is something very special too.
    Were Liverpool reigning European & English champs each time they won the European Cup? I know they certainly weren’t on the last occasion but for me that doesn’t take anything away from the achievement as I believe it is much more difficult to win the EC now than in the pre-Champions League format.

    I see what BBK is trying to say about the devaluation of the EC if top 3 or top 4 teams, ie non Champions can qualify for the ECL but I don’t agree.

    For me, unless the treble is repeated, then this stands out as the greater achievement. 5 wins and don’t forget the 2 runners up is a great achievement, but it can be surpassed – look at the domestic league record which Liverpool are about to lose.

    We’ve not seen (m)any other team in Europe doing the treble (European Champions, domestic league, the main domestic cup) and there are some pretty good ones like Barcelona, Real Madrid, AC Milan, Juventus, Inter, Bayern Munchen, Liverpool, Benfica, Porto, etc, etc to mention a few.

    Hence for me the greater achievement.

  9. #9
    DF VIP Member jacko1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    3,242
    Thanks
    73
    Thanked:        79
    Karma Level
    420

    Default Re: Can of worms

    Quote Originally Posted by LFC Muppet View Post
    Sack the Fat Spanish Waiter and get someone in that wants to win the league. I will never understand going to lower league clubs playing for a draw.
    muppet by name muppet by nature

  10. #10
    DF VIP Member LFC Muppet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    In my Wife
    Posts
    6,190
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked:        0
    Karma Level
    651

    Default Re: Can of worms

    Quote Originally Posted by jacko1 View Post
    muppet by name muppet by nature
    Explain please?

  11. #11
    DF VIP Member
    pumpman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    tv land
    Posts
    1,559
    Thanks
    33
    Thanked:        39
    Karma Level
    422

    Default Re: Can of worms

    The Treble without doubt, even given the resources Man U had as a team it is so easy to slip up in any competition , sure you take a bit of luck too, but every team can have that, The European cup can be won by any of the top teams, but the league needs something special to win it over a sustained period.

  12. #12
    DF VIP Member jacko1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    3,242
    Thanks
    73
    Thanked:        79
    Karma Level
    420

    Default Re: Can of worms

    Quote Originally Posted by honestDave View Post

    Were Liverpool reigning European & English champs each time they won the European Cup? I know they certainly weren’t on the last occasion but for me that doesn’t take anything away from the achievement as I believe it is much more difficult to win the EC now than in the pre-Champions League format.

    I see what BBK is trying to say about the devaluation of the EC if top 3 or top 4 teams, ie non Champions can qualify for the ECL but I don’t agree.

    For me, unless the treble is repeated, then this stands out as the greater achievement. 5 wins and don’t forget the 2 runners up is a great achievement, but it can be surpassed – look at the domestic league record which Liverpool are about to lose.

    We’ve not seen (m)any other team in Europe doing the treble (European Champions, domestic league, the main domestic cup) and there are some pretty good ones like Barcelona, Real Madrid, AC Milan, Juventus, Inter, Bayern Munchen, Liverpool, Benfica, Porto, etc, etc to mention a few.

    Hence for me the greater achievement.
    not sure on this but i dont think man u were reigning english champions the year they won the treble were they?not sure what your point was there,to be fair i think that they are both great achievments in thier own right,cant see how you can compare them though,imo to dominate europe or the premier league for that matter must be a greater achievment than winning the treble,my reason for this is you can have a one of great result were you have a lot of luck in all competitions, but to dominate something over a greater period must be harder to achieve,lets be honest liverpool would have been the first team to complete that treble only for a flukey deflected goal from lou macari that cost us the cup final in 77 even though we dominated the game,likewise had berkamp (i think it was him)not missed that last minute pen in your fa cup game you would not have done it,you see to win something like the treble requires a large portion of luck were as to dominate a competition requires much more than luck,thats why i think the treble will be done again one day but im not sure about one team dominating europe again.

  13. #13
    DF VIP Member jacko1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    3,242
    Thanks
    73
    Thanked:        79
    Karma Level
    420

    Default Re: Can of worms

    Quote Originally Posted by LFC Muppet View Post
    Explain please?
    your silly quote at the end of your reply,i dont know were your from mate but you seem to have a pop at liverpool at every occasion even when the thread has nothing to do with your comments,whilst crawling up the mancs arses,im beginning to doubt that you even are a liverpool fan,rafa to be sacked?what for exactly winning the european cup?winning the fa cup?or getting to the champions league final for a second time?you tell me mate,yes he's made mistakes but using your logic fergie would have been sacked by man u long before he dominated english football,ridiculous.

  14. #14
    DF VIP Member LFC Muppet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    In my Wife
    Posts
    6,190
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked:        0
    Karma Level
    651

    Default Re: Can of worms

    Quote Originally Posted by jacko1 View Post
    your silly quote at the end of your reply,i dont know were your from mate but you seem to have a pop at liverpool at every occasion even when the thread has nothing to do with your comments,whilst crawling up the mancs arses,im beginning to doubt that you even are a liverpool fan,rafa to be sacked?what for exactly winning the european cup?winning the fa cup?or getting to the champions league final for a second time?you tell me mate,yes he's made mistakes but using your logic fergie would have been sacked by man u long before he dominated english football,ridiculous.

    Going to Aston Villa and your main Forward gets injured, what would you do? What would any normal person do?
    The £30million + worth of strikers you have left and right midfield are an option right? Nope you put on a £1.5million forward with lots of experience and let him play on his own for half an hour.

    We just say scraped a win at Sunderland

    Tell me is this the right mentality to be pushing for the league?

    TBH, I am sick of it I am a supporter of Liverpool and I don't want to see our Domestic League record beaten by the scum, at this rate it isn't just gonna be beaten it is going to be smashed.

    He is the right man for Cups but for the League, he just doesn't have what is needed in my eyes.

    Also his wheeling and dealing in the transfer market is another thing to be looked at. Why spend so much money on youngsters (which he may never get to work with) and spend less money on a first 11 player that is only really good enough to be a squad player?

  15. #15
    DF VIP Member jacko1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    3,242
    Thanks
    73
    Thanked:        79
    Karma Level
    420

    Default Re: Can of worms

    Quote Originally Posted by LFC Muppet View Post
    Going to Aston Villa and your main Forward gets injured, what would you do? What would any normal person do?
    The £30million + worth of strikers you have left and right midfield are an option right? Nope you put on a £1.5million forward with lots of experience and let him play on his own for half an hour.

    We just say scraped a win at Sunderland

    Tell me is this the right mentality to be pushing for the league?

    TBH, I am sick of it I am a supporter of Liverpool and I don't want to see our Domestic League record beaten by the scum, at this rate it isn't just gonna be beaten it is going to be smashed.

    He is the right man for Cups but for the League, he just doesn't have what is needed in my eyes.

    Also his wheeling and dealing in the transfer market is another thing to be looked at. Why spend so much money on youngsters (which he may never get to work with) and spend less money on a first 11 player that is only really good enough to be a squad player?
    as i said he has made mistakes but who doesnt?as far as im concerned when rafa came to liverpool he had to build from the bottom to the top, this is an ongoing process,as far as the youngsters he's buying only time will tell if he was right or wrong to buy these players but to be fair the youth team and the reserves are doing better than they have for a while which is a good sign imo,yes this season the team are not playing well but were above manu and level with chelsea at the moment so should thier managers be sacked?3 games into the season and you want him sacked as i said before ridiculous.

  16. #16
    DF VIP Member B.I.G.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Liverpool
    Posts
    5,428
    Thanks
    210
    Thanked:        337
    Karma Level
    679

    Default Re: Can of worms

    Quote Originally Posted by LFC Muppet View Post
    Going to Aston Villa and your main Forward gets injured, what would you do? What would any normal person do?
    The £30million + worth of strikers you have left and right midfield are an option right? Nope you put on a £1.5million forward with lots of experience and let him play on his own for half an hour.

    We just say scraped a win at Sunderland

    Tell me is this the right mentality to be pushing for the league?

    TBH, I am sick of it I am a supporter of Liverpool and I don't want to see our Domestic League record beaten by the scum, at this rate it isn't just gonna be beaten it is going to be smashed.

    He is the right man for Cups but for the League, he just doesn't have what is needed in my eyes.

    Also his wheeling and dealing in the transfer market is another thing to be looked at. Why spend so much money on youngsters (which he may never get to work with) and spend less money on a first 11 player that is only really good enough to be a squad player?
    We drew away to a team expected (and probably will) to be pushing for a top 4 place whereas Man U drew with Newcastle at home and Chelsea drew with the team that where at the time bottom of the league after being stripped of their two best strikers (Berbatov was still there but not in the squad).So out of the three of us we've had the better start what more do you want?

    I'll ignore your mocking our youth policy if you don't understand whats trying to be achieved there then so be it.

    Anyway back on topic it's a pretty stupid question really the two can't really be compared it's like comparing Rebecca Adlington who won a few golds at the olympics this year and saying is she better than Daley Thompson who dominated his event for a good few years.(I am of course basing that on the fact that she may never win another gold).

    When Man U won the treble it was a magnificent feat that can only be bettered by someone cleaning up domestically and winning the cl or possibly for a slight edge doing the treble whilst being reigning champions.

    Liverpool dominated Europe and at the time to do that it wasn't just a matter of finishing 4th and doing well in the champions league you had to be a force both domestically and in europe.

  17. #17
    DF VIP Member honestDave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,492
    Thanks
    59
    Thanked:        27
    Karma Level
    379

    Default Re: Can of worms

    Quote Originally Posted by jacko1 View Post
    not sure on this but i dont think man u were reigning english champions the year they won the treble were they?not sure what your point was there...
    I was trying to say that many people say that because you no longer need to be the reigning national champs to enter in to the ECL, this devalues the competition, but I don't agree.

    I think the ECL is much more difficult to win than pre-CL days regardless of the fact that top 3 or top 4 finish in the domestic league can qualify you now a days.

  18. #18
    DF VIP Member wijit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,090
    Thanks
    91
    Thanked:        105
    Karma Level
    332

    Default Re: Can of worms

    I love starting this sort of thread. When Man Yoo won the treble, it was amazing, a sustained attack on all but one competition (Carling cup, or whatever it was called that week), which must've taken an incredible physical toll on those who played in most games. Ably directed by a manager who should be regarded as the best post-war manager in English football it wasn't just the fact that they did it, but the way it was done.
    Liverpool won 5 European Cups when, in truth it wasn't as difficult to win, but they did it by coming back as a team each time with only a few different players, directed by managers who, at least one, had arguably the greatest football mind, and with mangers who,other than the most recent, all came from within the club. I still don't think Liverpool get the recognition from domestic football supporters for their achievements in Europe.

    My own feeling is that the treble is the better achievement by a team, but the 5 was better by a club. If that makes sense.
    Apathy? can't be arsed.

  19. #19
    DF VIP Member BBK's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    here
    Posts
    12,422
    Thanks
    234
    Thanked:        128
    Karma Level
    1083

    Default Re: Can of worms

    Quote Originally Posted by wijit View Post
    My own feeling is that the treble is the better achievement by a team, but the 5 was better by a club. If that makes sense.
    I think that makes perfect sense

    Right, so whats your next can of worms? Looking forward to it

Similar Threads

  1. Worms 2?
    By Laughing_chris in forum PC Gaming
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 19th September 2004, 12:38 PM
  2. This is a can of worms
    By makiavelli in forum The Dog and Duck
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 21st June 2004, 04:15 PM
  3. Worms 3d XBOX PAl
    By Yazmon in forum Microsoft Consoles
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 9th November 2003, 12:49 AM
  4. Nachi / Lovsan.A worms
    By Snotty in forum PC Problems
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 4th November 2003, 04:29 PM
  5. worms world party
    By {film_man} in forum PC Gaming
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 2nd October 2002, 09:38 PM

Social Networking Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •