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  1. #1
    DF VIP Member Bald Bouncer's Avatar
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    Info Cabinet expenses under scrutiny


    Cabinet ministers face questions after full details of their expenses claims were published by the Daily Telegraph.

    They include a claim for £6,500 made by Gordon Brown to pay his brother for a cleaner for his Westminster flat.
    Hazel Blears claimed for three homes in one year and spent nearly £5,000 on furniture in three months.

    Minister Harriet Harman said the system was not "scarred by corruption" and claims were made in "good faith" under the old rules which were being changed.

    Meanwhile Downing Street has released a copy of the contract for cleaning Gordon Brown's flat and said there was nothing "unusual or wrong" about the PM sharing a cleaner with his brother and reimbursing him for a share of the cost.

    'Looks bad'
    The Telegraph reported that Andrew Brown received £6,577 between 2004 and 2006 for cleaning services at the prime minister's private flat.
    Defending the prime minister, deputy Labour leader Ms Harman told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "It's being portrayed as if Gordon Brown somehow has pocketed extra money for it purporting to be his cleaner, or his brother has pocketed extra money, and that's not the case."
    She said all claims were within the rules.

    We do respect public opinion and we do respect the need for change


    Labour MP Sir Stuart Bell



    Expense claims - key details
    Nick Robinson's view
    What MPs can claim on expenses

    "I know this looks bad and people are angry," she said.
    "MPs believe in the cause of public service and that's why they're in public service and I believe our House of Commons is not scarred by corruption on the scale of other political systems."
    "We have recognised that the allowances system needs to change, but people have claimed in good faith under the old system - we've already changed the old system and we're going to change it further."
    Asked about claims MPs have been claiming one property is their "second home" under the allowance, but not for the purposes of council tax or capital gains tax, she refused to give a "gut instinct judgement" on whether it was a breach of the rules.

    Potential abuses
    But she said: "Normally it would be the same for council tax, for tax if there was a sale of the property... normally there would be a consistency on that."
    Full details of all MPs' expenses dating back four years, running to 2.4 million receipts, were due to be published in the middle of July after the Commons authorities lost a Freedom of Information battle.
    But the Telegraph claims potential abuses would have remained secret because MPs have been allowed to edit out addresses and other information.

    The newspaper has published details of 13 cabinet ministers, including chancellor Alistair Darling, Communities Secretary Hazel Blears and Culture Secretary Andy Burnham.
    It plans to publish further revelations about MPs from other parties as well as Labour over the next few days.
    The Telegraph reported that Gordon Brown also claimed £153 twice for the same plumbing work at his constituency home - which No 10 said was done inadvertently and had been repaid.
    Justice Secretary Jack Straw claimed his entire council tax bill for his second home despite already enjoying a substantial discount from his local authority, worth a reported £1,500 a year.

    'Honest'
    His spokesman said all his claims were made within Commons rules and he had repaid it when he spotted the mistake.
    Among other revelations, Ms Blears is said to have claimed for expenditure under the allowance on three different properties during the same year, spending £5,000 on furniture in three months.

    The Telegraph says by switching their designated second home between their London and constituency properties, Ms Blears and other MPs have been able to claim for household goods or other reimbursements for both.


    Jack Straw is under scrutiny for his council tax claims

    A spokesman for Ms Blears said she had done nothing wrong and the furnishings she had bought were "reasonable".
    "Hazel is honest as the day is long," said the spokesman.
    Culture Secretary Andy Burnham was in correspondence with the fees office for eight months over an expenses claim for £16,500 to buy and renovate a new London flat.

    Officials finally agreed to pay the cash after rejecting the claim three times.
    This followed a series of letters from Mr Burnham asking for his expenses to be paid urgently.

    Mr Burnham says that over the past five years he has under-claimed on the Additional Costs Allowance by about £40,000.
    The Telegraph accuses MPs of trying to maximise the amount of money they can legitimately claim within the rules, which they set and oversee.
    Labour MP Sir Stuart Bell, who sits on the House of Commons Commission, said the expenses claims were "not unusual" or "out of order".
    He added: "We do respect public opinion and we do respect the need for change - and I think that change is coming, I hope it will come quicker and I hope the public will get the respect for MPs back which we do actually deserve at the end of the day."

    The Telegraph has not confirmed whether it paid for the information.
    No 10 sources suggested the information published was accurate but insisted the nature and timing of the publication was politically motivated.
    MPs recently voted through reforms of the expenses system amid mounting public anger about alleged abuses and will now have to provide receipts for all spending.

    But they have still to reach a cross-party agreement on reforming the controversial second homes allowance. The Committee on Standards in Public Life is also conducting a review of pay and expenses after concerns public trust had fallen to an all-time low.


    Source BBC News
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The Telegraph says by switching their designated second home between their London and constituency properties, Ms Blears and other MPs have been able to claim for household goods or other reimbursements for both.
    Sure that's not a scam, very easy to claim "honest mistakes" but people lose their jobs up and down the country every day for these sort of "honest mistakes" on expences.

    The silence on this from the opposition has been deafening obviously because they are all taking part or turning a blind eye to this morally dishonest practice which is only legal because they make the rules to the system they abuse.



  2. #2
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    tombott's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cabinet expenses under scrutiny

    Quote Originally Posted by Bald Bouncer View Post

    The silence on this from the opposition has been deafening obviously because they are all taking part or turning a blind eye to this morally dishonest practice which is only legal because they make the rules to the system they abuse.
    Exactly, nobody is mentioning it because they are all in on it.

    To be honest its disgusting really, but it could be worse!

    The European Parliament for instance, oh but hang on we pay for that as well!
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    DF Probation Goldberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cabinet expenses under scrutiny

    Yep totally agree. The government is under public scrutiny at the moment (as it always is) so Cameron and his cunts are clutching at straws.....

    However government aside, after watching some naff program on the TV the other night (embarrassing bodies I think) I learned that bint's who wear high heels all their lives and fuck there feet up cost the tax payer millions and millions each year in treatment!!! I say cut the their legs off!
    We all make mistakes sometimes

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    DF VIP Member Zippeyrude's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cabinet expenses under scrutiny

    i bet camerons arse is twitching like a rabbits nose

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    DF Probation Goldberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cabinet expenses under scrutiny

    I bet he dare not claim for a new bike after I stole his again this week lol.
    We all make mistakes sometimes

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    DF VIP Member rmj2663's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cabinet expenses under scrutiny

    Quote Originally Posted by Bald Bouncer View Post

    due to be published in the middle of July after the Commons authorities lost a Freedom of Information battle.
    If its all above board, and nothing to hide, why the battle over Freedom of Information?
    Obviously fought by all parties to cover their arses!!
    "Friendly fire will not be tolerated"

  7. #7
    DF VIP Member Zippeyrude's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cabinet expenses under scrutiny

    they also sought a change in the law to specifically exclude themselves from these provisions.

    they also sought a review of the fees regulations governing FOI legislation but brown bottled it after he took over.

    Its one rule for them and one rule for everyone else.

  8. #8
    DF VIP Member Over Carl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cabinet expenses under scrutiny

    Is there any reason those that are caught cheating don't face criminal charge?

  9. #9
    DF VIP Member rmj2663's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cabinet expenses under scrutiny

    Quote Originally Posted by Over carl View Post
    Is there any reason those that are caught cheating don't face criminal charge?
    Because there would be no Parliament left to run the country, as they would all be sacked/inside
    "Friendly fire will not be tolerated"

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    DF VIP Member GTI's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cabinet expenses under scrutiny

    Quote Originally Posted by Over carl View Post
    Is there any reason those that are caught cheating don't face criminal charge?
    Call me naive, but I think our politicians are choir boys compared to many on the Continent and further afield. We make a song and dance about some hapless minister mistakenly claiming 10 quid for two grubby cable movies, whilst South American politicians are making million dollar deposits into their Swiss bank accounts. I would far rather our politicians ripped us off(the humble tax payer) than took back handers or freebies from wealthy donors. At least this way its all out in the open.

  11. #11
    DF VIP Member rmj2663's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cabinet expenses under scrutiny

    I thought back handers & freebies had also come to light recently.
    Just because our MPs aren't on the fiddle to the scale of some around the world, doesn't make it OK. Working people up and down the country lose their jobs over the same scams, and these people pay taxes to pay the MPs for their fiddles. Its wrong and needs to be exposed.
    "Friendly fire will not be tolerated"

  12. #12
    DF VIP Member Bald Bouncer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cabinet expenses under scrutiny

    Quote Originally Posted by GTI View Post
    I would far rather our politicians ripped us off(the humble tax payer) than took back handers or freebies from wealthy donors. At least this way its all out in the open.
    Problem is they are doing both, what they are doing isn't illegal as they write the rules but it is totally immoral and they keep feeding the media with stories about benefit fraud which is like keep running stories about fly tipping and ignoring stories about murder.

    There are millions unaccounted for in Europe which has been syphoned off by the greedy Euro MP's yet most of these stories never make the news even though it costs us about 1.5 billion a year just to remain a member and all investigations are blocked.

    You can clearly see the dishonesty of them all coming out on the News when they keep saying they have done nothing wrong under the rules which is total bollox as legally they have done nothing wrong but morally they have and are showing that honesty is something they wish to enforce on the public not themselves.
    Their fight to stop the publication of this information clearly shows that although they keep pushing more and more ways to monitor and collect information on the people with the "nothing to hide, nothing to worry about" line the same does not apply to them.

    My opinion is stealing out of greed is much worse than stealing out of need and they can dress this up whatever way they want but the simple fact is anyone working for a company outside government who made similar "honest mistakes" would be sacked and possibly prosecuted but again they write their own rules.

  13. #13
    DF VIP Member Over Carl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cabinet expenses under scrutiny

    True. But by the same arguement we might as well stop prosecuting people who assault others as we have murderers out there.

    I think as with other crimes, there should be an punishement fitting the damage the crime does to our nation, as well as deterrent in relation to the potential gains. It's like I said about the coppers who killed tomlinson, how can they claim any legitimacy in the legislation they pass when they choose to live above it.

    Edit: This was in reply to GTI but a couple beat me to it.
    Last edited by Over Carl; 8th May 2009 at 04:15 PM.

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    DF VIP Member Over Carl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cabinet expenses under scrutiny

    Quote Originally Posted by Bald Bouncer View Post
    My opinion is stealing out of greed is much worse than stealing out of need and they can dress this up whatever way they want but the simple fact is anyone working for a company outside government who made similar "honest mistakes" would be sacked and possibly prosecuted but again they write their own rules.
    K+

  15. #15
    DF VIP Member Bald Bouncer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cabinet expenses under scrutiny

    Quote Originally Posted by Over carl View Post
    True. But by the same arguement we might as well stop prosecuting people who assault others as we have murderers out there.

    I think as with other crimes, there should be an punishement fitting the damage the crime does to our nation, as well as deterrent in relation to the potential gains. It's like I said about the coppers who killed tomlinson, how can they claim any legitimacy in the legislation they pass when they choose to live above it.
    The point I was trying to make (not very clearly) was not that we shouldn't pursue or prosecute lesser crimes it was that they use this to focus peoples attention on a crime to distract from the real money draining problems caused by the greed and self serving interests of MP's, Peers and Euro MP's

  16. #16
    DF VIP Member rmj2663's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cabinet expenses under scrutiny

    For interest a list of some claims here:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8039273.stm

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    DF Admin 4me2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cabinet expenses under scrutiny

    Quote Originally Posted by Over carl View Post
    Is there any reason those that are caught cheating don't face criminal charge?
    Possibly because there are no laws only guidelines ?
    There are 3 types of people in the world - those who make things happen, those who watch things happen; and those who wondered what happened.

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    DF Admin 4me2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cabinet expenses under scrutiny

    Quote Originally Posted by GTI View Post
    Call me naive, but I think our politicians are choir boys compared to many on the Continent and further afield. We make a song and dance about some hapless minister mistakenly claiming 10 quid for two grubby cable movies, whilst South American politicians are making million dollar deposits into their Swiss bank accounts. I would far rather our politicians ripped us off(the humble tax payer) than took back handers or freebies from wealthy donors. At least this way its all out in the open.
    You must be very naiv to think they aren't doing both.

    Also we don't foot the bill for south American MP's.
    There are 3 types of people in the world - those who make things happen, those who watch things happen; and those who wondered what happened.

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  19. #19
    DF VIP Member Over Carl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cabinet expenses under scrutiny

    Quote Originally Posted by Bald Bouncer View Post
    The point I was trying to make....
    My bad - I was replying to gti and you got in there before me.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4me2 View Post
    Possibly because there are no laws only guidelines ?
    Suspected as much but didn't know. Still surprised the charge of obtaining property by deception could never have been applied.

  20. #20
    DF VIP Member GTI's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cabinet expenses under scrutiny

    For me the solution the is clear, make a politicians salary commensurate with his/her job and have a complete overhaul of the expenses system. The Chancellor of the Exchequer earns a base salary of 130k. I know senior HR managers at the Royal Bank of Scotland that earn more than that with bonuses. How can it be that we give them so much responsibility and yet expect them to get by on what are in effect middle management salaries? Because what is happening is that we are not attracting the best and the brightest into public service, but the rejects or party-loyal dullards who've worked their weary way into Westminster. Put simply, you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

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