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  1. #1
    DF Admin 4me2's Avatar
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    BBC News European Court upholds French full veil ban


    European Court upholds French full veil ban




    There are calls beyond France too for public wearing of the niqab to be banned



    The European Court of Human Rights has upheld a ban by France on wearing the Muslim full-face veil - the niqab.

    A case was brought by a 24-year-old French woman, who argued that the ban on wearing the veil in public violated her freedom of religion and expression.
    French law says nobody can wear in a public space clothing intended to conceal the face. The penalty for doing so can be a 150-euro fine (£120; $205).
    The 2010 law came in under former conservative President Nicolas Sarkozy.
    A breach of the ban can also mean a wearer having to undergo citizenship instruction.
    France has about five million Muslims - the largest Muslim minority in Western Europe - but it is thought only about 2,000 women wear full veils.
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    The court ruled that the ban "was not expressly based on the religious connotation of the clothing in question but solely on the fact that it concealed the face". The Strasbourg judges' decision is final - there is no appeal against it.


    Muslim headscarves


    The word hijab comes from the Arabic for veil and is used to describe the headscarves worn by Muslim women. These scarves come in myriad styles and colours. The type most commonly worn in the West is a square
    scarf that covers the head and neck but leaves the face clear.
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    A court statement said the ruling also "took into account the state's submission that the face played a significant role in social interaction".
    "The Court was also able to understand the view that individuals might not wish to see, in places open to all, practices or attitudes which would fundamentally call into question the possibility of open interpersonal relationships, which, by virtue of an established consensus, formed an indispensable element of community life within the society in question."
    Some face coverings, including motorbike helmets, are exempted from the French ban.
    The woman, identified only by the initials SAS, took her case to the European Court in 2011. She said she was under no family pressure to wear the niqab, but chose to do so as a matter of religious freedom, as a devout Muslim.


    France sets precedent

    France was the first European country in modern times to ban public wearing of the full-face veil. Belgium adopted a similar ban in 2011.
    In Spain, the city of Barcelona and some other towns have brought in similar bans, as have some towns in Italy.
    No such general ban applies in the UK, but institutions have discretion to impose their own dress codes.
    The French government argues that the ban has wide public support. The authorities see the full-face veil not only as an affront to French secular values but also as a potential security risk, as it conceals a person's identity.
    In the past, the European Court has sided with French secularism - it also ruled in favour of the government's ban on headscarves in schools.
    But in 2010, the judges did find against Turkey, ruling that religious garments were not in themselves a threat to public order.

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  2. #2
    DF Super Moderator BertRoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: European Court upholds French full veil ban

    All for it.


  3. #3
    DF Super Moderator Over Carl's Avatar
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    Default Re: European Court upholds French full veil ban

    Without wishing to debate the ethics of the ban or the wearing of the Hijab, I fail to see how this ruling is compatible with Article 18 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights.

    "Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance." [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

  4. #4
    DF Admin 4me2's Avatar
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    Default Re: European Court upholds French full veil ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Over carl View Post
    Without wishing to debate the ethics of the ban or the wearing of the Hijab, I fail to see how this ruling is compatible with Article 18 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights.

    "Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance." [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
    If you could show me where in the Koran that it states all women must wear a Hijab to practice the religion then I'd agree with you.

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    Default Re: European Court upholds French full veil ban

    Who gives a fuck, if you live in my land and the law says to show your face regardless of religion then so be it.

    All for it.

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    DF PwNagE GTI's Avatar
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    Default Re: European Court upholds French full veil ban

    My major problem with this type of ban is that these women will continue to wear the niqab due to their sincerely held beliefs, and all that will happen is that they will become increasingly withdrawn, alienated and eventually criminalised for their beliefs.

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    VIP Member CzarJunkie's Avatar
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    Default Re: European Court upholds French full veil ban

    If I was walking down the high street, wearing only an upturned wheely bin with a small slot, and claimed it was the Easter bunny who told me to, I'd be fucking locked up. And they'd be right to lock me up.

    Vive la France!

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    DF PwNagE burner1's Avatar
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    Default Re: European Court upholds French full veil ban

    Religion is a personal thing, imo you should leave it at the front door of your house when you go in to society. I can't wear my gimp mask when I go shopping without someone kicking up a fuss so this is no different in that respect.

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    DF PiMP Itsme's Avatar
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    Default Re: European Court upholds French full veil ban

    I agree with it,because I cant see the person behind the mask.Is there any VALID reason why someone must hide their face in Public ?
    Walk in a bank wearing a helmet and im told to take it off - walk in same bank wearing a veil and its suddenly a Human rights issue.
    TBH fuck the human rights issue - lets get back to common sense.

  10. #10
    DF Jedi Zippeyrude's Avatar
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    Default Re: European Court upholds French full veil ban

    @overcarl

    As with all the principles in the ECHR, there is a balancing of interests and each case is considered on its merits. If you look at articles 6 and 8, namely privacy and the freedom of expression, there is always a tension between an individual's right to privacy and the wider public interest in publication of information.

    In this case the outcome is clear - on its merits. It doesnt mean that art. 18 will always be disregarded in all instances.

    Thanks to Zippeyrude

    Over Carl (2nd July 2014) 


  11. #11
    DF PwNagE GTI's Avatar
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    Default Re: European Court upholds French full veil ban

    Quote Originally Posted by CzarJunkie View Post
    Vive la France!
    Vive La Grande Bretagne!
    I would much rather live in a tolerant, accommodating society than one riddled with racism and hypocrisy. And I say this as a committed francophile who speaks the language, lives 10 mins from the French border and does most of his shopping, dining, entertaining in France. The fact of the matter is that 'Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité', the very principles upon which France is founded is a complete sham. Sex, corruption and racism is rife and if you are black or North African you are second class.

    A good friend of my wife is a French Moroccan girl who graduated with a degree in Business and International relations from a good French University and the only jobs she could find were receptionists, secretarial or those in the hospitality industry. Fortunately her English was good enough to extend her search to London, and within months she was snapped up by a city law firm and now would never contemplate returning to Paris. And she is far from unique, there is a whole community of African and French North Africans in London who are tired of discrimination in their home country and chose to emigrate to lead a better more equitable life abroad.

    So going back to ladies who choose to veil, I just see this as another high brow liberal assault on people's cultures and values. Until there is a spate of bank robberies by women in veils, its a case of 'our values are better than yours, do as we say'. France has enough problems to deal with politically, economically and socially.. so these kind of populist issues are nothing more than a distraction.

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  12. #12
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    Default Re: European Court upholds French full veil ban

    May be a distraction but it's the right call and should be introduced here in the uk.

  13. #13
    DF PlaYa mij's Avatar
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    Default Re: European Court upholds French full veil ban

    How can we all be observed if we cover up!

  14. #14
    DF Jedi supraman54's Avatar
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    Default Re: European Court upholds French full veil ban

    It's sad that it's come to this but I do understand the need and yes we should follow suit

    supe
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    DF Jedi stimpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: European Court upholds French full veil ban

    Quote Originally Posted by mij View Post
    How can we all be observed if we cover up!
    You had better prey they don't ban tin foil hats.

  16. #16
    DF PlaYa mij's Avatar
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    Default Re: European Court upholds French full veil ban


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    DF Jedi Hangman's Avatar
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    Default Re: European Court upholds French full veil ban

    If someone has committed no crime why should they be restricted from wearing anything.

    Maybe they should be banned if and only if they are ever found guilty of a crime.
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    Its better to burn out than to fade away...............

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    DF Jedi darkstar's Avatar
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    Default Re: European Court upholds French full veil ban

    The veil is to stop us simple men doing naughty deeds to them dam temptress woman not any thing to do with religion isn't it ?

  19. #19
    DF Admin 4me2's Avatar
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    Default Re: European Court upholds French full veil ban

    Quote Originally Posted by darkstar View Post
    The veil is to stop us simple men doing naughty deeds to them dam temptress woman not any thing to do with religion isn't it ?
    That's pretty much how I see it.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: European Court upholds French full veil ban

    But who's under the veil Raptor or 4me2 Ummmmm!

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