Actually thinking a little about what I posted I think this clip from "A Few Good Men" sums it up nicely - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j2F4VcBmeo
Actually thinking a little about what I posted I think this clip from "A Few Good Men" sums it up nicely - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j2F4VcBmeo
Er a part time bad poker player was ere:bomb:
hang them all for treason.
I had respect for certain members on this forum but after reading some comments within this thread that respect has gone out of the window.
I'm not continuing any further with this thread because if I say want I want to say I'll get banned and that I dont want.
Would like admin to close this thread due to the fact its to close to the bone.
I’m alive and kicking yeh baby.
You'll only get banned from the thread or worse if you indulge in personal insults, racism etc. it can be as heated as you want otherwise. If you CAN'T make your point without resorting to those means you will have no success in making your point. Remember we are all entitled to our opinions, you can seek to change those with reasoned arguments, anything else will fail.
Edit and PS, it's not YOUR thread to close, use the ignore button!
To re-iterate what has been mentioned and hasn't been replied to - how has the war in Afghanistan benefited us? Please don't give me any bullshit about 9/11 as Afghanistan was no threat to us, but mark my words, at least one Afghanistani will have been driven to to point of carrying out a revenge attack for what we have done. Therefore as previously said, in terms of their primary duty, protecting us, this is a total and epic fail. Therefore they cannot be considered heroes for these actions in any way shape or form, unless you are told what to think by the government.
Edit to add this para: Consider the Islamic nations as a bees nest. Maybe a potential threat but not causing us any issue. We keep poking the bees nest, then we get confused when they come out to sting.
Now if they are going out and putting yours and my lives at risk, just to ensure they receive their pay packet and don't end up in jail, please explain how they deserve any respect from me? As mentioned earlier, following orders doesn't excuse a person's moral obligations. People are calling these soldiers brave for facing potential death. True bravery would be facing court martial. If enough soliders did this, the govenment would realise they aren't sat on a brain dead lump of muscle, but they have an intelligent team of people ready to defend our country's real interests.
Not seeing any vaild answers to these points because you lot haven't got any. Please answer these points as this argument is getting tiring when people want to avoid the real issues at hand -it gets tiring seeing people outraged at anyone speaking against our forces, yet not even having a slightest valid reason to back up their stance.
Now back to 4me2's point about religion - firstly, yep I'm not going to deny there is a massive heroin trade from Afganistan, something which is a scourge on the world. However, is this any more immoral than say what's just happened with our banks - a select elite make massive amounts by totally fucking loads of people's lives over. Only difference is you have a choice if you want to try brown.
Also yes I agree there is a massive point about religion. I have a strong feeling for a while someone/group of people with influence are intentionally creating conflict between Islam and the rest of the world - you only have to read the propaganda in the papers to see that there is a serious interest in creating conflict between us and Islam, just at the same time we seem to be ploughing through a list of Islamic nations to rape under the guises of protecting us against terrorism, whilst conveniently ignoring that our foreign policies are likely the spark for much of the "terrorism".
Last edited by Over Carl; 17th June 2010 at 06:31 PM.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism
thankfully their influence is on the wane
I don't agree with these protests, purely because I believe that these protests were held purely to antagonise the troops, families and EDF and give them a good reason for a nice big scrap. I do believe that those who oppose the war have every right to protest and show their displeasure at these 'home comings' peacefully, as they should also do outside No. 10.
So, if they were protesting completely peacefully do you still think they should not be allowed to protest against these wars?
A PM with a backbone would have told Bush to shove it up his arse, possibly with a bit more diplomacy, especially with the invasion of Iraq which had a massive turn out against it.
I don't think the Afghani Oil Reserves are that big, I am happy to be proved wrong though. Who exactly are the 'backward fuckwits' that are in charge of their own oil? Why do you say they don't have the brains to use it?
When you say they are defending our way of life, how do you mean?
What makes them heroes in your eyes? There is no denying that they are incredibly brave, christ, if my boss told me to stand in front of a bunch of people who want to kill me (for genuine reasons or otherwise) for minimum wage with equipment that didn't work for a cause I don't believe in my legs would have moved so fast in the other direction I probably would have broken my back.
It is pretty much understood that the middle east is where the largest oil reserves are. Not Afghanistan granted but from a bit of reading it looks as if they have been "earmarked" for 2 things. 1. Oil pipeline 2. Drug control......now that could be bollocks but it is what I believe.
Now Iraq does have plenty oil and I believe the "We" invaded that country to have a few crumbs from the USA who I believe have/will take control of the oil supply in that region.....They may not win any war but Id bet that they take the oil which most of us believe is what it's all about.
To answer your other point.....I have at no point stated that the "backwards Fuckwits" ARE in charge of their own oil IF you reread that bit of my post then you would see that I said it would be dire for US IF they were in control of their own resources.
I stand by everything I wrote. It may be hard for most to stomache but I beilieve it is the truth of the matter. I don't think people (Joe Public) really think deep enough into the reasons why we are there and the "possible" scenario if we didn't have some sort of control over there.
Other point raised......Peaceful marches should be allowed of course....but again free speech comes at a price just like on this forum....It feels like free speech but woe betide the member who slags off another member (and rightly so)...so we have free speech but within boundaries. I think that is fair enough.
Last point - "Defending our way of life" -
This is again IMHO - They defend my right to drive from London to Glasgow in my car full of petrol/diesel that I as a normal working man CAN at this point in time afford. They defend the way I turn my central heating up to sweat inducing levels in the dead of winter....again something I as an ordinary working man can afford. They defend my right to use the worlds oil reserves at a reasonable price.
Now Im not mental and I know that my thoughts most will find what I have written abhorrent but I think that is what the REAL reasons behind what we do and why we do it (with regards to illegal wars ect)
These are just my opinions and they are based on a bit of reading and a bit of my own interpretation of events to date. Again I may be wrong (It wouldn't be the 1st time lol)
BTW - If I was Afghani or Iraqi then I would NOT be happy with what was happening to my country and I would like to think I would have the guts to fight alongside my fellow countrymen to defend my country.......What I wouldn't do is go and take a handout from the invading country and then protest with 50-100 of my mates in the very country that I am happy to take from. That's not saving their country, it's not changing anything and it isn't brave.
Hope I have answered the points you raised.....weather you like them or not is a different matter.
Think of the flip side do you think we invade these countries for fun ? If not why ? What for ?
Er a part time bad poker player was ere:bomb:
Thank you for your answers.
I knew about the Oil Pipeline, my question about oil reserves was a genuine one (if anyone else knows the answer?).The drug control thing, I think you are right, it was one of the original reasons, but not to stem the supply of drugs more to give a more plentiful and consistent supply to Pharmaceutical companies that are involved with opiate products. Just my (uninformed) opinion. I think one of the big reasons for Iraq was revenge after The Gulf War, as well as the oil. However, surely they can't just 'take' the oil when they leave. I think it was to set up a regime that will sell the west oil on the cheap. Again, just opinion.
Apologies, I read it wrong. What do you think would happen if they were in charge of the oil and supply? Are you talking about pricing us out of the oil, or cutting it off completely or something worse?
Agree, kind of. I would like full freedom of speech, but I know that it couldn't happen as it would probably end up violent because, especially when the subject is so fragile, people can't censor themselves.
When we finally sort out our Nuclear Power, if you excuse the car point, would you feel differently about the 'defending way of life' point?
That was a point I was going to raise, so you can understand why our troops are getting attacked over there?
What if they were all working, held down good jobs and were contributing to society? As, if you reread your comment it is very presumptuous. How would you feel towards a large group of people protesting, from all backgrounds?
I believe I answered your questions in my first paragraph, but I am sure there are more reasons, and they were thinly veiled behind lies about WMDs and Terrorists.
The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are without a doubt illegal, there's no question about it. And this thread does a good job in showing how the masses have been left delusional by the media and government into thinking what they want you to think.
It's an unknown. The west hates unknown entities. We as a people hate unknown entities, The old saying "better the devil you know" springs to mind. Basically the west throughout history puts in place a "regime" that it considers friendly. Everything is fine until they start to think hmm maybe we can do this.that or the other without the west. Then the "Big Bully" gets the hump and we follow suit.Code:What do you think would happen if they were in charge of the oil and supply? Are you talking about pricing us out of the oil, or cutting it off completely or something worse?
When we sort out Nuclear Power and car's/lorries that run properly without the need for oil and it's derivatives then yes my stance would then change.Code:When we finally sort out our Nuclear Power, if you excuse the car point, would you feel differently about the 'defending way of life' point?
Ok I get where you are coming from with this....I don't think they do themselves or their familes or their country ANY good by being in the country that they call "Invaders" and either working/claiming benifits or even running buisnesses to my way of thinking if they wanted to protest then do so at an appropiate time/place. But more the point is fook protesting get over to your comrades and take up the fight alongside them. Yes this would most likely result in more British troops being killed but I personally would have a hell of a lot more respect for them if they were doing something "constructive" to help their fellow man.Code:What if they were all working, held down good jobs and were contributing to society? As, if you reread your comment it is very presumptuous. How would you feel towards a large group of people protesting, from all backgrounds?
BTW it's good to actually chat with someone about this without it descending into a slanging match as I know fine well my views would not sit well with most people....but I believe that is because the majority don't think about the reasons/cause deeply enough.
Er a part time bad poker player was ere:bomb:
I've thought about keeping quite on here - I don't know many people in real life who actually give a shit or read further than what they are told to read so I rarely get to have these discussions in real life. However, I thought why keep quiet online to appease people I am unlikely to meet who do not understand the obvious difference between right and wrong?
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